Greek Independence and the American Revolution

00:00:09: Welcome to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness a podcast commemorating The Two Hundred Fifty Year Anniversary Of The Declaration of Independence.

00:00:17: This show is sponsored by America Centrum in Hamburg Germany And I'm your host Andrew Soler.

00:00:23: Today we'll be continuing our assessment on the impact.

00:00:36: We know that ancient Greece was the cradle of democracy, and Greek or Hellenic culture is an anchor in what we call Western civilization.

00:00:46: And most of us are familiar with names from great figures like Socrates and Plato, Epicurus and Epictetus Aristotle Alexander Thucydides and Thrasymachus.

00:01:00: The founders were also familiar with the philosophy and culture.

00:01:05: In fact, they were besotted with ancient Greece.

00:01:09: They were Phil

00:01:10: Hellenes.".

00:01:11: For example here's a passage from Thomas Jefferson's letters The Greeks by their laws took care to put into the hands of their rulers no such engine of oppression as a standing army.

00:01:28: Their system-the Greek system was to make every man a soldier and oblige him to repair whenever that was reared.

00:01:38: This made the Greeks invincible and this same remedy will make us so

00:01:44: too.".

00:01:45: So here we see, The early American support of local militias And opposition to standing armies Was very much influenced by ancient Greek practices.

00:01:56: Here is a more personal note on Jefferson's affinity for specific greek philosopher Epicurus.

00:02:03: I'm an Epicurean," Jefferson writes.

00:02:06: "...I consider the genuine doctrines of Epicurus as containing everything rational in moral philosophy which ancient Greece has left

00:02:14: us.".

00:02:16: Indeed, the phrase The Pursuit Of Happiness In THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE references a specific epicurean concept For Epicuris and for Jefferson... Instead, the pursuit of happiness means something like the pursuit a virtuous peaceful well-rounded and fulfilling life.

00:02:41: Something that ancient Greeks would call eudaimonia.

00:02:46: Jefferson's love for Greek culture is known but other founders like Adams Madison Hamilton were keen students in ancient Greek government systems and modeled the US Constitution on different features And Greece's influence even extends, obviously to the architecture of Washington DC.

00:03:10: In short, the founders of the US were very much influenced by the philosophy and culture of ancient Greece.

00:03:16: but what did they think about modern Greece?

00:03:19: Greece didn't exist in seventeen seventy six since at least the fourteen hundreds mainland Greece had been conquered by the Ottoman Empire and many Greek islands where variously owned traded an occupied conquered by different foreign powers.

00:03:34: In fact, independence for Greece did not come until eighteen twenty-nine well after American Independence.

00:03:40: And even after eighteen twenty nine the current boundaries of modern Greece were not fully formed.

00:03:47: So today we're going to talk about Greek independence and American independence.

00:03:51: What was Greece like in seventeen seventy six?

00:03:55: How are greek immigrants involved?

00:03:59: How did Greek ideas influence American independence in seventeen seventy six?

00:04:04: And how, then the United States influenced The greek independence movement and the eighteen twenties.

00:04:11: How Did the new u.s government view greek Independence?

00:04:15: What can we learn from comparing those two independence movements?

00:04:21: here with me today to untie the Gordian knot of american and greek wars for independence is professor nicolas du manis.

00:04:28: welcome

00:04:28: nick hello.

00:04:31: Nicholas Dumanis is Professor and Illinois Chair in Hellenic Studies at the University of Illinois, Chicago.

00:04:38: He has the author of numerous books about Greece's modern European history including Myth & Memory In The Mediterranean And A History Of Greece Which Is Now In Its Second Edition.

00:04:50: Links Are In The Show Notes.

00:04:52: So Nick why don't you just set this scene for us back in seventeen seventy six?

00:04:57: What Does Greece Like In Seventeen Seventy Six?

00:04:59: Seventeen-seventy

00:05:02: six was yet another chaotic year in Greece.

00:05:07: Now let me first describe what we mean by Greece, We mean the end of the Balkan Peninsula so the Peloponnes then known as the Moria and central Greece which includes Athens a bit further north of that So...and the islands The adjacent Islands Ionian and the Aegean Sea, you could probably throw in Crete.

00:05:34: And that would be more or less what classical Greece was... You can go a bit further north but once you go further north of that then the ethnic composition of those territories becomes a lot more mixed.

00:05:48: But Greece as far everybody is concerned In the world, if you talk about Greece it's that bottom end and essentially that became the first iteration of the modern Greek state.

00:06:01: It wasn't a very large place not a very promising for a new nation-state but That is what The Greek Revolution produced.

00:06:10: Now in the decade of the seventeen seventies was I think the first time of prolonged crisis A crisis that really continued into the to the eighteen twenties.

00:06:25: And what started that crisis was, What we call The Orlov Affair or Love being the name of two leading figures in the Russia-Turkish war In which there was an attempt by An Orlov Russian officer To stoke up hatred towards the Turks and start a revolt in the Peloponnese.

00:06:49: Now I'm going to be talking a lot about the Peloponnes of Moria.

00:06:53: And what happened was that only a couple of the local nobles, Greek nobles in the region heeded that call.

00:07:02: The rest did not so the revolt didn't go very well.

00:07:07: However there was enough of a revolt That the Ottomans sent in a mercenary army To quell that revolt

00:07:16: Much like the Hesseans in the US war for independence.

00:07:19: Well, yeah well except accept that these um These were Albanian Muslims mostly let's just call them Albanians.

00:07:28: Once they dealt with the revolt They stayed in the region and became the new nuisance.

00:07:35: They were into extortion laying siege Nabbing people for slaves.

00:07:41: I just turned The Peloponnes into a lawless place.

00:07:46: Then we find that in the ensuing decades, more mercenaries were sent to deal with these mercenary.

00:07:54: Once the incoming mercenaries dealt with people who are troublemakers then they became the troublemaker.

00:08:02: but on the whole you'll find that law and order broke down and what you get is a sense of precariousness amongst the general population of the Peloponnes.

00:08:13: Law and order had broken down, was never rectified by the Ottomans.

00:08:18: so in in seventeen seventy six You would see A place which Was at The beginning Of a long period of disruption lawlessness And um...a lack of government control.

00:08:33: So the Ottoman State Failed in what it was supposed to do, and that is to maintain stability in the region.

00:08:40: So you started by describing sort of Greece... ...and trying to define what Greek identity is.

00:08:48: so going back to this Ottoman period.

00:08:51: Is there already basically in seventeen seventy six?

00:08:54: And even before then a strong sense that Greece because of the Greek culture and Greek identity and Greek language ought be independent the Ottoman kingdom.

00:09:07: Is there a real solid notion of independence?

00:09:10: No,

00:09:11: no that's short answer.

00:09:13: we're in a pre-national era as the concept of The Nation is only new in seventeen seventy six with the American nation which has completely novel concepts.

00:09:27: very interesting experiment I would say Because it's become the norm in the twentieth century, we assume its natural nation-state.

00:09:37: But if wasn't...it was something that was invented relatively recently and in Greece –the Greek world– The idea of a Greek Nation may have been in the minds some individuals intellectuals but on the whole no.

00:09:55: until the Russia-Turkish War People generally living under the Ottoman Empire probably didn't think it was a plausible idea to even have independence of any sort, to live under any Christian king.

00:10:12: The Ottoman empire had been such a powerful presence in Europe and that part of world since the fifteenth-sixteenth century at least... ...the idea that would go away Not conceivable.

00:10:27: they could only dream about it.

00:10:28: I can talk about prophecies Of the Greek people, you know that were popular amongst the Greek People which are all About The last emperor of Byzantium coming back To restore Christian rule and i mean christian rule not a greek nation.

00:10:45: A christian Rule was uppermost in their minds.

00:10:47: You see?

00:10:49: As far as the Greeks we're concerned They weren't Greeks, they never used the word Greek to describe themselves at that time.

00:10:57: The greek word for greeks is helines elinus.

00:11:01: That had gone into disuse a long time.

00:11:04: you know many many centuries before.

00:11:07: They were now romans Because of the Long period of Byzantium which was really an extension of the Roman Empire.

00:11:14: It's just it is a content...it IS THE ROMAN EMPIRE and people generally just became Romans after many, many generations.

00:11:24: Rome becomes their country as well.

00:11:27: Byzantines sort of their empire as Romania the world of the Romans but with a twist.

00:11:37: for them Roman meant Greek Orthodox so it meant greek speaking.

00:11:43: greek orthodox people were roman.

00:11:45: It's an idea that is really hard to impress upon the modern student or reader, but my grandfather for example who was a born and Ottoman subject.

00:11:57: Was it Rome in Turkish?

00:12:00: Or Romyos in Greek?

00:12:02: A Roman!

00:12:03: And that meant Greek Orthodoxy didn't mean had nothing to do with the city of Rome.

00:12:08: What Ottoman territory he was in...

00:12:11: Well, he was born in Bodrum, Halicarnassus which is on the Aegean coast of Turkey.

00:12:18: Now that but anyone in Greece at the time would have said the same thing.

00:12:23: In the Peloponnese there were Romani Romans But that meant Greek Orthodox Christians and to some extent Greek speakers as well.

00:12:34: Look their primary identity was religious.

00:12:37: they were Christian Orthodox Greek Orthodox.

00:12:40: that meant there were Romans, Rome-Romea.

00:12:43: At the time they would have liked The End of Ottoman rule.

00:12:48: They never really liked being ruled by Muslims or Turks but they got on with it and made the best of whatever offerings at the Ottoman system provided.

00:13:01: Any sense though of national self determination was something that creeped up after the Russo-Turkish war, which finally gave a sense to most people in the Ottoman Empire.

00:13:17: At least the minorities that were non Muslim... That there was now possibility they might be either independent or some part of Christian Europe particularly Russians will come and rule.

00:13:32: instead They'll have Christian rule.

00:13:37: So that's about the size of it in this seventeen

00:13:41: seventies.

00:13:42: Some interesting things you said connected to some other things we've learned about.

00:13:46: The American Revolution and its impact on other places is I was immediately thinking Ireland, because none of the conquered peoples could believe they were independent from the British Empire.

00:14:05: the Irish revolutionaries looked at seventeen seventy six and said, huh?

00:14:10: Actually it's possible to break away from this overwhelmingly powerful imperial force above us.

00:14:18: And Christian Greek people or Romans as we might call them now, was also had that powerful thing and they couldn't imagine a polity existing independent of this extremely powerful empire.

00:14:39: Yeah well if you think about it the Ottomans were their most powerful military state in the world In the seventeen hundreds, it only started to dawn on everybody that they had fallen behind.

00:14:56: The Europeans and It's only in a late eighteenth century.

00:15:02: That is very clear.

00:15:03: They are weak And as weakness continued The hope of minorities of independence grew.

00:15:19: You know, you've heard about the sick man of Europe.

00:15:23: It's an exaggeration.

00:15:25: The Ottomans were still powerful right up until the beginning of the twentieth century but not a match for any European power.

00:15:33: So as they're getting weaker though many Balkan peoples start to think that it is possible either on their own But really more practically by having a patron European power

00:15:48: either

00:15:48: conquering, you know taking over that part of the Balkans or the Ottoman Empire.

00:15:53: Or helping them get independence?

00:15:56: The other thing I just want to note in your introduction to the Greek area in seventeen seventy six is actually this religious concept which i think so important and it's what might separate American revolution from most revolutions because they became pretty strongly non-religious.

00:16:19: But it seems to me that the Greek Christian identity was very much religious.

00:16:25: It's language, culture but all dominated by religion as opposed to political ideals.

00:16:33: I would say that is normal in this period of time and what anything Western Europeans do is exceptional.

00:16:42: The rest of the world Is more like.

00:16:46: So it's just that the Western way will then start to become the norm over time.

00:16:53: They'll be more powerful.

00:16:55: Okay, well I do want to get some of the political philosophy in next section but i thought we'd travel across The Atlantic And maybe you might want to talk a little bit about some Greek immigrants.

00:17:08: I guess they would be Ottomans, Ottoman Greeks, Ottoman-Greek Christians—I don't know how that would be defined in the

00:17:14: U.S.,

00:17:14: but there were some Greeks participating in The American Revolution?

00:17:20: Just on the question of how these people are described... Westerners always describe Greek Orthodox Christians as Greeks so they wouldn't have called them Greeks in the Americas any part a Greek would have been and some were not from Ottoman territories, they're from parts that were ruled by Venice for example.

00:17:44: But anyway what you find is the Mediterranean first of all.

00:17:49: it's full of greek sailors captains mercenaries and they often ended up in the Americas.

00:17:58: You can find them from very earliest periods, there's always these researchers who try to dig a Greek somewhere you know in the entourage of Hanan Cortes or De Soto And y'know...you'll find a name that could possibly see name.

00:18:17: Like the most famous Greek who participated in The American War of Independence was Michel Dragón or he's definitely a Greek, Dracos meaning dragon but that is his surname and he was born in Athens in seventeen thirty nine.

00:18:35: And like many merchant sailors, soldiers for hire... He ended up really in Louisiana.

00:18:41: so he was then the Louisiana Purchase Area hence a French zone.

00:18:47: He fought in The Spanish Army as part of the War of Independence, the American War of Independences.

00:18:54: So he was in the Gulf of Mexico area.

00:18:57: Bayola County was a war hero.

00:19:00: He contributed to the making of The United States, even though when The United State's was created he was outside of it.

00:19:07: but once New Orleans becomes part and Louisiana becomes part Of The United states and is still alive then he becomes A US citizen.

00:19:17: as an historian I don't really get too excited about these individuals, because the Greeks are very intrepid.

00:19:28: You'll find them everywhere and every now-and-then you will be surprised that they're in the Argentinian dictatorship of the nineteen seventies as a Greek.

00:19:41: They'll find him anywhere.

00:19:43: I'm not surprised at their present in any famous expedition but just like other group, Italians Portuguese Spaniards any itinerant group, Lebanese.

00:19:58: a lot has a lot to do with Greece itself.

00:20:01: It's um...it's like country that cannot hold too many people and it encourages emigration.

00:20:08: Your general point I think is at the presence of a handful of Greeks

00:20:12: in

00:20:13: The American Revolutionary War basically as not historically significant except for some broader sense of the Greek diaspora liking

00:20:23: to point this out.

00:20:25: Yeah, yeah I mean even

00:20:28: with

00:20:30: it... The greek-american diaspora really starts in the eighteen nineties when there's a community or the first churches.

00:20:37: but when your communities build created that are greek and There is a tangible kind of community then you can start talking about a diaspora.

00:20:51: Church I know of is sometime in the late nineteenth century and Louisiana, but The eighties nineties when it all starts.

00:20:58: But before that you'll have a trickle of people everywhere.

00:21:01: And in the early modern period You know in mercenary armies any kind of intrepid expedition Trans-Asianic movements Especially as Greeks are pretty skilled seafarers.

00:21:14: They're.

00:21:15: they're the ones at really manned the Ottoman Navy.

00:21:19: They're gonna be around the world as well.

00:21:21: Okay, good so we were not going to make too much historically from the presence of a handful of Greeks in The American Revolution but I do want to now cross the Atlantic once again and get to Greece Once Again.

00:21:35: maybe just try to think A little bit about To what extent And or when News of this revolution starts trickling into the Ottoman Empire, The Greek areas of the Ottoman empire.

00:21:48: And is anyone really paying attention to it?

00:21:52: Are these sort of political ideals or this idea of self-determination Or that all men are created equal That we have inalienable rights life liberty property and pursuit of happiness All of this stuff?

00:22:07: How's that entering into the Peloponnes or these areas of Greece, or the general

00:22:14: Ottoman Empire at that time.

00:22:16: They're not entering The Peloponnese really except through the returning mercenaries.

00:22:28: Here's the thing.

00:22:29: You're not going to find too many intellectuals in the peloponnes in Greece itself.

00:22:36: What you do find is there are a lot of

00:22:38: young men

00:22:40: And remember what I said about the instability of, or the region as a consequence.

00:22:45: Of the presence of mercenaries that many of young men in the region to become mercenary's.

00:22:52: they fight against these people and then maybe go into the employee off various armies of Europe like the French Russian British armies?

00:23:04: They have careers there fighting you know Seven Years War and all these great, any great battles around the world.

00:23:15: you'll find that they're there.

00:23:18: Then they come home with certain ideas And it's not so much ideas that bring back.

00:23:25: is that its lessons of having worked for say The French.

00:23:31: They will see how efficient the French are Brilliant they are at mobilizing how technologically sophisticated.

00:23:37: They aren't compared to anything in the East and They've got this idea of what kind of states can do?

00:23:45: This.

00:23:46: And I get the sense that it's that kind estate.

00:23:48: It's their French state model or the British State Model, I have this view that we Do not give sufficient attention To the middle-sized almost nation state, if you like and its capacity for mobilizing resources.

00:24:05: And being efficient in it's use of resources because these states start to become dominant around the world.

00:24:15: people are called Colicotronis probably leading military figure in the Greek Revolution of eighteen twenty-one.

00:24:23: He has served in this armies himself.

00:24:26: he got a sense how great they were That is more important than what I'm about to tell you, and that the philosophical influence comes from Greeks in the diaspora.

00:24:40: The Greeks have created a large diaspora mainly in European cities including Russian cities like Odessa Vienna all major ones

00:24:51: Paris

00:24:52: London And there you find that Greek cluster.

00:24:58: These are often people of a merchant class, but they're also doctors and lawyers etc.

00:25:05: And their readers...and read a lot of literature!

00:25:09: They imbibe the Enlightenment.

00:25:14: They debate the Enlightement amongst themselves.

00:25:18: It's these Greeks in particular who see a difference between the world that Greece and the Ottoman Empire, and the West.

00:25:28: And something called a Greek Enlightenment does emerge.

00:25:33: There are a range of great thinkers like Adamantios Koraitis Like Monsieur Dax.

00:25:40: there's a number people whose names I needn't mention because they're not known to most read it People outside but what they do is that they filter ideas from.

00:25:50: The Enlightenment of revolution is one, one revolution that they heed but also more so the French Revolution which is closer at hand and they start...they're the ones that develop concepts of nationality or the kind of state that could be created instead of the despotic Ottoman State.

00:26:15: You know it's a serious enlightenment The Greek Enlightenment But it's one of many.

00:26:21: What we've discovered now is that the Enlightenment is not a purely European thing, but questioning old systems as a global thing – there are ones within Iran and China, Indian states or Ottomans who have their own little enlightenment….

00:26:40: These movements question the old and look for new foundations in the future and they are all in contact.

00:26:49: And somehow, they do inform each other through the distribution of pamphlets and

00:26:55: books."

00:26:57: So as we're trying to sort-of figure out these intellectual streams that are leading to Greek independence, Greece's own—I don't know how to describe it—Greece's own intellectual history.

00:27:12: going back to ancient Greece —to Plato and Socrates is not the direct stream going into Greek independence that one might think.

00:27:23: It's, in factly... That stream has left ancient Greece and gone to the rest of Europe as rediscovered in the rest-of-Europe then has pumped back into Greece at the end of the eighteenth century.

00:27:39: Is this how we are tracking these ideas?

00:27:47: Greek Enlightenment is not completely divorced from a Greek past either.

00:27:53: Look, throughout the long centuries of Ottoman rule there's always been a bunch of Greek thinkers and intellectuals.

00:28:04: in Byzantium you have very long tradition which either react against Greece or for it.

00:28:14: But one way or the other, they are connected to it and see the Greek tradition as part of their tradition.

00:28:21: I wouldn't say that's forgotten.

00:28:23: It is just a West that really takes it on in larger numbers with greater enthusiasm And with greater means.

00:28:34: The scale of the Western European Enlightenment is huge.

00:28:38: The Enlightenment picks up on previous interest in the classics as well.

00:28:42: It's just that it is, In the seventeenth and eighteenth century its burgeoning Its a stronger force than the eighteenth-century.

00:28:51: I'm overcomplicating things but i want to push back against this idea That it has forgotten in Greek world classic or Greek World continues But goes into an abeyance if you like.

00:29:05: Greek letters are always happening, there's always greek letters and a lot of it has disappeared too.

00:29:12: but this is good opportunity for me to talk maybe little bit more about Ottoman rule over the place because I mentioned earlier that they were not many intellectuals here and thats why i'm trying figure out how these ideas coming through.

00:29:29: isn't that the Ottomans repressing Greek education.

00:29:36: Is it like Cyprus, which is just the backwater and people don't happen to be educated?

00:29:41: There's not much sort of scholarship or anything going on.

00:29:44: I'm trying get a sense of this extent that this is suppression by the Ottomans.

00:29:49: Or if its gone away due because of forces in history How would you describe it?

00:29:58: It's more shifted.

00:30:01: It's hard to say if the Ottomans were suppressing this learning.

00:30:06: The idea that the Ottamans stamped out Greek Learning is not true, but it wasn't encouraged and facilitated... But it did continue within what was a Greek elite in the Ottoman Empire That always existed.

00:30:26: even soon after the fall of Constantinople An elite eventually was reconstituted and within those circles you would have had education, learning.

00:30:39: We just don't have too much evidence but we certainly have more evidence of Greeks who moved to Italy.

00:30:47: The first Greek printed book was printed in northern Italy.

00:30:52: It's where you get the first Greek press in greek for modern Greeks.

00:30:58: In Italy You had people translating books, writing books.

00:31:05: A lot of them were religious but a lot are not.

00:31:09: so you have kind an intellectual milieu there.

00:31:13: But it then really is something that happens in the diaspora and we know about more growth of libraries within the empire and schools within the Empire in the eighteenth century.

00:31:31: So I think we suffer from a lack of evidence, We just have pretty strong clues though that there's always been an elite.

00:31:41: There has always been higher education Maybe not universities but schools and teachers famous teachers Continuing these traditions across the Greek world.

00:31:54: The Ottomans waxed and wane in their attitude towards the Christian minorities.

00:32:01: You do have some phases of oppression, but on the whole they did not really... stamp everything out.

00:32:10: And certainly they did not stamp out the Greek Orthodox Church, if anything The Greek Orthodox church and its intellectuals continued to write books and theology under the aegis of the Ottoman rules because for them you know...the church was an institution which were supposed really oversee the Christian flock, the millet nation within the Ottoman Empire.

00:32:37: It had a status and it has its place in this system.

00:32:41: so there's something happening here.

00:32:42: we just don't know enough about it but I think that is evidence.

00:32:48: Let us take our story forward now.

00:32:50: We have been talking about life under Ottoman rule notion of ancient Greek ideas and Greek independence.

00:33:02: but it's primarily coming from these expatriate Greeks living in places like Paris, London, Odessa etc.

00:33:10: There is not much understanding what happening in America or American Independence.

00:33:18: so we've got some sort of shaky connections here.

00:33:22: But why don't you just take us then in the outbreak of the Greek war for independence.

00:33:32: What are sort of key things going on that leading finally to the outbreak?

00:33:41: Well, let's see... The French Revolution starts to shake things up.

00:33:50: and when I mean French revolution also means the Napoleonic shake-up which also includes the economic effects of those prolonged Napoleonic wars, which have reverberations in the Eastern Mediterranean.

00:34:05: But what we find is that by the late eighteenth tens and by eighteen twenties say economic life in the Greek world is particularly precarious.

00:34:18: there's talk of taxes punitive rises in taxes for already a beleaguered Greek population, and in the meantime that expatriate movement Enlightenment has produced a bunch of people who now think that Greece can be independent.

00:34:40: And from the mid-eighteenth tens we find a series of attempts to create societies secret societies.

00:34:47: The early nineteenth century Europe is full of secret societies, brandishing radical political ideas and the Greeks were no different.

00:34:57: Eventually one important society emerges.

00:34:59: that's called the Filiki Eteria which means a Society Of Friends And it was established sometime in the eighteenth tens.

00:35:08: By eighteen-eighteen its based on the Ottoman capital Constantinople Istanbul.

00:35:15: its specific aim is the liberation of the Greek people.

00:35:19: Now, the significance of this group is that it manages to attain the support of a very wide range of people in the Greek world so not just the Peloponnese but the islands in northern Greece.

00:35:34: throughout these southern Balkans there are Greeks in Salonika in Plovdiv or Philippopolis and Bulgaria.

00:35:44: All these major towns in the southern Balkans are full of these Greek merchant classes and members of society, Cyprus.

00:35:54: As far as Cyprus throughout what is now Turkey... What's interesting.

00:36:01: it not just intellectuals or leaders but also what you might call a warlord.

00:36:06: The Peloponnese has a lot of nobles who have a lot power.

00:36:14: These are Greek noble houses, which they're also so Turkish Noble Houses.

00:36:18: But there's a Greek Noble Noble Housers very famous families like the Mavro Korodatos family.

00:36:26: many of them join.

00:36:28: So you get a very wide range Of people all elites but different kinds of elites who were joining this secret movement.

00:36:35: and that tells You That throughout the decades Since seventeen seventy six or seventeen seventies at least there has been a build-up of faith in the idea of an independent Greece.

00:36:53: And I just want to pause you right now, do think they're motivated primarily by this idea not buy economic things because anything else?

00:37:02: They were really embracing ideologically The national identity.

00:37:11: That's a good question.

00:37:12: Some of them are motivated by the ideal of national self-determination, some of them I'm motivated by The possibility that they might expand their power.

00:37:26: So some of these notables These people this great landowners in southern Greece You know They're probably looking at increasing their power.

00:37:37: you Know the motives are mixed.

00:37:40: But the thing is that, The idea they could overthrow Ottoman rule Is becoming plausible to them.

00:37:47: That They can do it and by aiding twenty the conditions are ripe for rebellion.

00:37:53: A crucial things happens is this radical rise in taxes On an overburdened peasant population Means that they too are ripe For revolt If you know anything about the world of the peasant.

00:38:07: They don't revolt unless they are pushed to the extreme.

00:38:13: and The other thing that we need to note about the Greek World is at least in the Peloponnese, it's full of unemployed soldiers And the islands have many sailors as well.

00:38:27: There has been a lot of crime happening by these people.

00:38:31: A soldier could be also a bandit, a sailor could also be a pirate and the greek world is full of these people.

00:38:38: And it's full of guns.

00:38:40: all these men who've been employed in mercenary armies in the french army ,the russian army.

00:38:45: they've come home .and they carry guns!

00:38:48: They're not going to go back to the farm till the soil...they will seek out an employer protection and extorting, in all that sort of thing.

00:39:02: So we've got a bit of a mess there.

00:39:04: but also the political conditions and economic conditions are producing a perfect storm by eighteen twenty.

00:39:11: so they're the conditions at make The Greek Revolution ripe.

00:39:17: And within Europe generally it's an unwelcome development At least for the ruling regimes Of Europe because their old order you know, had defeated Napoleon and restored the old regime.

00:39:31: They're not that keen on a revolution sprouting radical ideas.

00:39:36: so they are not welcoming this.

00:39:38: but the Greek world is certainly wiped for rebellion in eighteen twenty-twenty

00:39:43: one.".

00:39:44: And it doesn't have a document or single event that kicks off like The American Revolution?

00:39:54: Is anyone declaring sort of, this is why we're doing this?

00:40:00: Yeah.

00:40:00: Well, the Filiki Eteri, The Society Of Friends have planned the revolt.

00:40:06: okay they are planning for early eighteen twenty-one and it's a three pronged revolt.

00:40:13: so there isn't much document but plan documents alerting everybody to the plan of circulating, so that's the document.

00:40:22: That's an important one.

00:40:23: but what happens?

00:40:24: is there a kind of conscript... An army that has been organised to invade from North France.

00:40:34: Alexander Ipsilantes leads an army from Romania and it's small army.

00:40:42: But once they start up invading from Romania.

00:40:47: Other Christians in the region, Greek Orthodox peoples so Romanian peasants will rise up and join in the fray... And there is a Romanian army that's also being organised to join-in.

00:41:02: That doesn't work!

00:41:04: That really does not work.

00:41:06: and the Ottomans really crushed it pretty quickly.

00:41:09: So this didn't work.

00:41:10: The second thing was to organise a rebellion within the imperial capital itself, because Constance and Opel is a huge Greek population.

00:41:20: It's a minority but it's pretty sizable.

00:41:24: And there was this strange idea that these people would rise up.

00:41:28: But they didn't when time came Because...it was A suicide thing to do within a world which you know The city well-armed.

00:41:41: Yeah,

00:41:42: it would be like starting the American Revolution in London

00:41:44: rather than... In London?

00:41:46: Yes!

00:41:46: ...in Philadelphia

00:41:48: yes and that didn't even get off the ground but a revolution did start in the Moria in the Peloponnese And It was because of local notables But also I haven't mentioned them which is silly for me Also warrior chiefs Cleftes they call him.

00:42:10: They also joined in, and they met at a point somewhere in northern Peloponnese to proclaim the beginning of The Revolution.

00:42:19: Now this is the mythical start Of The Revolution by Aya Lavra In eighteen twenty-one... ...in fact the meeting that started This revolution is shrouded in myth.. ..a lot people were not keen on going ahead but they ended up Going Ahead and what they found is that they could mobilize the local population, the local peasants.

00:42:41: And together these armed groups supported by the populace really succeeded in driving out the Ottomans when I mean driving up.

00:42:52: The Ottomains retained some fortresses but on the whole they quickly seized control of the Peloponnese.

00:43:02: One would have expected that the Ottomans were sent in an army to suppress even that uprising reasonably quickly.

00:43:14: They had military power, but at a time they were dealing with their own renegade provincial rulers and close by was someone called Ali Pasha, effective ruler of Western Balkans who was pretty independent.

00:43:32: He had his own court, he had his little enlightenment within his court but he was putting up a good fight against the Ottomans.

00:43:40: so the Ottamans were preoccupied with that struggle.

00:43:44: They did send in an army eventually to try and crush the revolt But they were militarily defeated near the modern town of Argos.

00:43:57: The revolution succeeded in the early years.

00:44:00: They did pretty well until about eighteen twenty-four.

00:44:05: Okay, so I've already sort of been jotting down here a number of similarities with the American Revolution and i think the most obvious one is that empires struggle managing different priorities right?

00:44:20: The Ottoman Empire could have potentially if it chose to make this, a priority.

00:44:25: putting it down could have done.

00:44:27: But their concerns are in so many places that's hard to figure out what the actual threat is.

00:44:34: and we see I think in The American Revolution...the nature of the threat wasn't quite understood.

00:44:39: they didn't know politically how make people happy.

00:44:42: another similarity as an idea taxes put people over-the edge.

00:44:48: But one follow-up question I want to have for you.

00:44:51: We have a very clear understanding that the Continental Congress, building on existing political structures in the colonies was able do a pretty good job of organizing all of the states and localities first—the state sending delegates into like make collective decisions.

00:45:11: The British Empire already allowed them a fairly robust political organization there, which then they could mobilize against the empire.

00:45:21: Right?

00:45:22: And I'm just kind of wondering the sense to which The Ottoman Empire had that same sort of political structure in place already That allowed the Christian Greeks To use against the Ottomans themselves.

00:45:38: Well...the Greek case appears to be quite different Although the Greeks themselves, including the local notables.

00:45:49: Many of them who once in service of the Ottoman state now turned against the Ottoman State were at loggerheads though with a lot of other groups and their families, including Diaspora Greeks—who are more idealistic ones.

00:46:06: Their different interests came to an end.

00:46:10: many times.

00:46:12: Every attempt to create a government and the Constitution exposed their differences.

00:46:19: And at some points there was open fighting between the factions, this is why they're fighting the revolution right?

00:46:26: So The Greek Revolution Was not ideal on an organizational level and it founded and Eventually too the Ottomans had to kind of call them.

00:46:39: They were also desperate.

00:46:40: The Ottoman Empire was not in a good state at this point, and eventually the Ottomans had to rely on Egypt which technically was part of the Ottoman empire.

00:46:52: Formally it was part Of the Ottoman Empire but in effect Was an independent State.

00:46:59: An Albanian called Muhammad Ali

00:47:02: who

00:47:02: was trying To turn Egypt essentially into A modern state.

00:47:08: He had built a very successful military apparatus.

00:47:14: And the Ottomans were forced to hold their nose and request from him his assistance, so he sent his son Ibrahim Pasha who then was sent to Greece and to quell the revolution.

00:47:31: So between eighteen twenty five eighty twenty six The Egyptian army is present in in Greece, and it's really driven the Greek rebels to a few fortresses.

00:47:45: They almost suppressed the revolution.

00:47:48: so... The Ottoman state itself needed help.

00:47:52: It couldn't do it its self but the Greeks themselves did not find any kind of useful organization, organizing model To work with themselves And were Often, as I said they were often fighting each other.

00:48:09: and in the mid-eighteen twenties you find that The Revolution is almost dead.

00:48:14: It's just hanging on by its nails until the Europeans then decide That They're going to support the revolution.

00:48:21: because up Until Then the European States As i said did not Support the revolution including Russia.

00:48:30: Russia being the most conservative of the european powers certainly didn't want to support a revolution.

00:48:37: But things changed during the course of the war, public opinion in Western Europe started to turn dramatically... actually it had always been in support of the Greeks.

00:48:48: sorry Public Opinion was strongly in support because they were Also, enabbed by the Greek classics and myth.

00:48:56: What I mean public opinion?

00:48:58: I mean middle class as a reading public to consumers of newspapers or people who sat in salons and debate discussed matters politics etc.

00:49:08: they were all unanimous for for the Greeks but their governments where not.

00:49:13: on hearing that the Egyptians we're on the cusp of suppressing revolution They turned the pressure on their governments to change their policy and add assistance into intervene.

00:49:26: An additional factor is racism, it was often... banded about in the press that it was, you know these African Muslims are about to crush and massacre these Greeks and Christians.

00:49:39: The importance of religion is equal to that of interesting classics in turning public opinion in Western Europe.

00:49:47: And once that happens... ...the game is over!

00:49:49: The European states changed their minds First Russia?

00:49:53: The Russians changed their mind because They think that the British are about to change their minds, and they... And the Russians do not want their influence increasing in that part of the world.

00:50:05: In Eastern Mediterranean.

00:50:07: So the Russian start to change Their minds.

00:50:10: The prospect of a russians moving into the Ottoman Empire is anathema To western states.

00:50:16: so they Start to join forces with the Russians and to impress upon the Ottomans the need to make a deal With the Greeks and create some kind of autonomous state in Greece itself.

00:50:32: Right, you mentioned this changing up public opinion.

00:50:34: I think that is a good time to now take us back over the Atlantic To talk about U.S position The official governmental position on Greek independence.

00:50:43: And i just want start by reading short passage.

00:50:46: Thomas Jefferson wrote here in eighteen twenty three to Adamantios Corais who was an intellectual Greek, whom I believe lived in Paris.

00:51:01: Who is very much part of the intellectual backing for greek independence.

00:51:07: Corayese is sort-of trying to convince Jefferson and they had been friends for some time To put pressure on US government to get involved here in October.

00:51:23: No people sympathize more feelingly than ours with the sufferings of your countrymen.

00:51:29: None offer more sincere and ardent prayers to heaven for their success, And nothing indeed but the fundamental principles Of our government.

00:51:39: never to entangle us With Europe could restrain Our generous youth from taking some part in this holy

00:51:45: cause.".

00:51:46: You know funny?

00:51:47: Nothing except our non-entanglement sort of policy, would ever restrain our generous youth from taking some part in your holy cause.

00:51:58: Possessing ourselves the combined blessings of liberty and order.

00:52:03: we wish the same to other countries And none more than yours which The first of civilized nations presented examples Of what man should be

00:52:17: Interesting.

00:52:19: What do you make

00:52:20: of that?

00:52:21: All I can say is that the US, the young

00:52:26: U.S.,

00:52:27: not a power really does intervene at some point in their training to deal with Barbary pirates.

00:52:34: but it's reluctant too get embroiled and anything In The Old World.

00:52:39: certainly individuals do.

00:52:42: A number of officers in the American you know former offices an American Army kind come in and participate directly into the war effort, as a lot of fellow Helene's do.

00:52:56: And there is certainly major fundraising happening amongst American elites across the seaboard gathering money sending it to... actually its interesting.

00:53:13: This is happening too in Europe, but the Americans are interested in bringing relief to suffering communities peasants and refugees.

00:53:22: And what they do?

00:53:23: Is that they don't give them money to The elites in Greece.

00:53:29: They insist on redistributing the money themselves Seeing that the money goes directly to where it's supposed to be there.

00:53:35: particularly interested two in slavery.

00:53:38: They see the Ottomans as slavers.

00:53:40: There's a lot of abolitionists who are interested in The Greek War and they're very upset when some Greeks have also got Muslim slaves.

00:53:53: And there is strong interest amongst Americans In bringing over orphans, male orphans.

00:53:59: Interesting!

00:54:01: This suspicion that this was both philanthropic but an attempt to train young Greeks to become missionaries, to spread the Protestant word of God which they will do with gusto for the rest of the nineteenth century.

00:54:17: But it's interesting how American society is galvanized by developments in Greece whereas a government is trying to keep up but at least is openly sympathetic from that...from the get-go.

00:54:32: Interesting all right.

00:54:34: well we're coming.

00:54:38: It took some time after this Greek War of Independence for the final consolidation of modern Greece to happen.

00:54:48: Why do you think that is?

00:54:49: You'd mentioned there was no common vision of a free Greece, and people could imagine Greece not under the yoke disputes about what that might look like.

00:55:04: And I think this for me, This is one of the most common denominators of all these anti-colonial revolutions.

00:55:12: people have all sorts of different reasons why they don't want to belong to The Empire but They disagree on What their new independent state should Look Like.

00:55:22: Yeah so because the European states intervened tried to get the Ottomans to make a deal with the rebels, they refused.

00:55:34: And there was a naval battle called Battle of Navarino.

00:55:38: in October, eighteen twenty seven European Naval Force obliterated The Ottoman Egyptian Navy and the allies reoccupied.

00:55:48: Greece sent the Egyptians away.

00:55:51: so it was the Europeans now who were in charge And it took about three treaties to kind of establish what Greece would be.

00:56:02: But in the end, it was the European powers who determined... In the end What Greece Was and that they determined That It Would Be a Kingdom with an old regime constitution or rather no Constitution Rather but An Old Regime With A Bavarian Prince Author a Catholic imposed as the king.

00:56:26: And then finally we have those strange German connection here, how bizarre!

00:56:30: Yes he never became popular partly because he insisted on remaining catholic and who had to be forced to install a parliament to accept a more enlightenment influenced constitution.

00:56:47: did it under duress?

00:56:48: but Greece, as we know it the nation-state was established.

00:56:54: It's very hard to establish a date for when that all started but we know when the revolution started at eighteen twenty one by eight in thirty two its pretty much set.

00:57:06: In the meantime To get there There was a lot of conflict with it by Greek factions leading to The death of the first president couple.

00:57:15: this to us essentially Europeans enforcing their own solution.

00:57:22: At any point in this process, are we starting to get these Anglo-American Enlightenment ideals about how men are created equal and everyone has rights inserted into the concept of what a new Greece will be like?

00:57:46: Well look!

00:57:46: What does transpire is that Greece Whilst it's got its first king and then at second King who is a Dane.

00:57:56: the people insist that The kingdom is a Kingdom of the Greeks not the Kingdom of Greece.

00:58:03: It takes time for the Constitution to develop over the course of the nineteenth century And what you have by the eighteen nineties?

00:58:13: Is a very poor heavily indebted country Very backward in most ways, but it's God A constitutional monarchy, it's got voting rights.

00:58:24: It has a newspaper reading public and male suffrage.

00:58:30: It gets a lot of these things before other European states allow those kinds of innovations.

00:58:36: so Greece is both backward but also ahead in many ways.

00:58:42: That's interesting.

00:58:43: with lots of various development trends countries that we assume are late in the game kind of skip several steps.

00:58:54: So do they jump forward, you know beyond some other older

00:58:58: ones?

00:58:58: But can I add though where Greece is pioneering it's at first one of the earliest nation-states ethnically defined nation states.

00:59:12: It makes certain its territory is Greek so Most remnants of the Ottoman past are obliterated.

00:59:21: Greece quickly becomes a Greek space, right?

00:59:25: So there's a concept that the Harvardist story in Charles Mayer uses called territoriality That is... In the nineteenth century we see The state taking control Of much what it has within its boundaries And culturally defining It.

00:59:41: What the Greeks do Is they create A culturally defined Space And as the Greek state expands into the North in later times, that process continues.

00:59:52: They obliterate the remnants of the Ottoman world and turned it into a thoroughly Greek space.

00:59:58: so the minarets disappear.

01:00:01: any Muslim looking building disappears.

01:00:05: So that concept of nation-building is something which the Greeks are among the first to pioneer.

01:00:13: Whether that's good or bad, I'll leave it to the listeners to decide.

01:00:17: We will leave at a descriptive level for now and we're coming to end of our discussion.

01:00:24: so here what we've been doing is looking at the two hundred fifty year anniversary of American independence And then the two-hundred years anniversary of Greek independence too.

01:00:36: So what are your sort main takeaways as an historian?

01:00:39: Looking these two independent movements?

01:00:44: Well, the Greeks commemorate eighteen twenty-one.

01:00:47: The beginning of the revolution because as you noted earlier trying to figure out what the end point of the Revolution is.

01:00:53: it's very difficult but there was like...the beginning is eighteen twenty one.

01:00:57: so It was in Twenty twenty-One when the Greeks were meant to celebrate the Bicentenary.

01:01:05: Of course that was marred by

01:01:06: Covid

01:01:08: and they were muted celebrations.

01:01:11: As you possibly know, the celebrations for the

01:01:13: U.S.'s

01:01:14: two hundred and fiftieth anniversary were muted by political events shall we say?

01:01:20: The Trump presidency has been a problem because it was widely seen by much of the American public that he would turn into a celebration of him.

01:01:30: So...it's being a mutated affair here Of course.

01:01:37: Many Americans just refuse to partake in any celebration.

01:01:40: So both affairs were muted for different reasons, but both of really critical foundation myths, seventeen seventy six and eighteen twenty one are a really kind of holy years especially for the Greeks.

01:01:53: Eighteen twenty-one if you ask anybody.

01:01:56: even they haven't studied history or have no sense of history?

01:02:00: They know what eighteen twenty is.

01:02:02: it's kind of drummed into every child from primary school and in the family.

01:02:07: And they know who were the leading figures of The Revolution Were, what their result was... Two revolutions were perfect foundation myths for these two new nations which introduced a very new concept to the world-the nation state.

01:02:28: They performed that job perfectly.

01:02:32: Foundation myths were retold in ways that suited the purposes of a nation state.

01:02:38: If looked at directly, historically one finds they disappoint in many ways... ...that some heroes did not perform heroically or we're not as great men as we have built them up to be but for the purpose of building a nation-state.

01:02:56: these are perfect myths And all nations really need a foundation myth, a birth myth that bespeaks of the values... ...that the nation is supposed to represent.

01:03:10: Thank you very much Professor Nicholas Dumontis.

01:03:14: Thanks for having me!

01:03:15: It's a pleasure.

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