Cyprus and the Declaration of Independence

00:00:09: In September of nineteen fifty eight Archbishop Macarios made a statement in which he said, I would be prepared to accept the status of independence for Cyprus on condition that this status shall not be changed either by union with Greece, by partition or any other way unless United Nations approves such

00:00:31: change.

00:00:33: Welcome to Life, Liberty and the Pursuit of Happiness a podcast commemorating The Two Hundred Fifty Year Anniversary Of The American Declaration of Independence.

00:00:42: This show is sponsored by The American Centrum in Hamburg Germany And I'm your host Andrew Sola.

00:00:48: Throughout this series we've explored A wide variety of perspectives about the declaration of independence.

00:00:54: We have looked at female perspectives Black Perspectives Native American Perspective And we've also looked at the influence of American declaration on different countries from Ireland to Mexico and France.

00:01:08: By using this comparative approach, We have learned that The Declaration was influential in some ways That we haven't realized.

00:01:15: At same time it wasn't as influential As we often assume.

00:01:22: Nevertheless, the comparative approach always offers up some fresh insights.

00:01:27: And today we're going to do more comparative history by focusing on the island of Cyprus and its struggle for independence from the British Empire which indeed finally occurred in nineteen sixty roughly two hundred years after The American Declaration.

00:01:45: The obvious similarity between American and Cypriot independence is that both sought some form of independence from British rule.

00:01:53: Also, within both societies there was a wide variety of opinions about what their relationship with Britain should be like.

00:02:02: In the American colonies There were loyalists who wanted to remain British subjects.

00:02:07: There were moderates who wanted an Irish model which meant a restoration of their rights within a British imperial system.

00:02:15: And, of course there were also extremists—the Sons Of Liberty who advocated absolute independence from Britain and who committed violence not only against their fellow Americans but Britons too in order to achieve those

00:02:30: ends.".

00:02:31: In this respect American history has some interesting similarities with Cypriot History.

00:02:37: As with the colonies, there was a similarly complex mosaic of political opinion in Cyprus.

00:02:43: There were those who preferred enosis—enosis an important word.

00:02:48: Enosis was independence from Britain WITH union...with Greece.

00:02:55: So, enosis-independence from Britain and Union with Greece.

00:02:58: There are also those who prefered total independence form Britain as well as independence from Greece.

00:03:05: And there was also like the Sons of Liberty and militant group, Eoka who pursued a campaign violence against both British and Greek Cypriots who disagreed with them.

00:03:17: And don't forget that Cyprus has large Turkish Cypriot population.

00:03:21: they had their own concerns about British rule as well.

00:03:25: They were concerned about Enosis with Greece, Cypriote independence.

00:03:32: Many Turkish Cypriots supported Toxin, or Partition and some of them formed the Turkish resistance movement.

00:03:39: The TMT And in this respect Turkish Cypriots are similar to the Catholic French Canadians who refused to join the primarily Protestant Anglo-American Revolution.

00:03:53: As a result Canada remains within the British Commonwealth today.

00:03:58: And don't forget that after declaring independence, the Thirteen Colonies in America.

00:04:04: One of the first things they did was to authorize the invasion of Canada which had refused to join those thirteen colonies.

00:04:11: So we will start seeing some similarities with Cyprus here too Of course.

00:04:17: After The Americans invaded Canada then the British forces and Quebec invaded the new thirteen colonies-the New United States.

00:04:25: so there is plenty of war independence in the United States.

00:04:30: Now, the same can be said of Cyprus.

00:04:32: since the end of British rule in nineteen sixty and the invasion of Turkey in nineteen seventy-four The island of Cypress consists of the Republic of Cypres in the south which is a member of the European Union and recognized by the united nations And then in the north at the Turkish republic of northern Cyprus which is a country only recognized by Turkey and considered to be an occupied territory, while the United States after the revolution slowly consolidated its control over most of North America.

00:05:10: The island of Cyprus still has contested space.

00:05:13: It remains –to this day–a divided island with a divided capital and militarized border monitored.

00:05:23: Perhaps you already get a sense of the enormous complexity.

00:05:48: It's

00:05:51: great that you're here.

00:05:52: Kali Spera!

00:05:53: Kali spera?

00:05:56: Andreykos is professor of history at the University of Flinders in Adelaide, Australia.

00:06:01: he has written extensively about Cyprus and as the author for four books on Cypriot History including assassination in colonial Cyprus in nineteen thirty-four in The Origins Of Eoka British Cyprus In The Long Great War, nineteen fourteen to nineteen twenty five Serving the Empire in The Great War, the Cypriot Mule Corps Imperial Loyalty and Silence Memory.

00:06:27: And lastly British imperialism in Cyprus, eighteen seventy-eight to nineteen fifteen...the inconsequential possession!

00:06:35: Okay links for all of his books are on show notes.

00:06:39: Alright we're gonna get started.

00:06:40: I apologize for long intro but soon were just going be focused on Cyprus.

00:06:45: Cypriote history goes back thousands years.

00:06:48: The island of Cyprus, due to its strategic position in the Mediterranean has been coveted by so many different empires.

00:06:56: It's kind of hard to go through the list.

00:06:57: I created a shortlist and i'm sure i'm missing some but these are the different occupying forces in Cypriot history egyptians misinaeans venetian ancient greeks persians the roman empire the Byzantine Empire crusaders venetians ottomans britain and turkey.

00:07:19: We're not going to explore all of these occupations.

00:07:23: I need a place to start, so i'm gonna.

00:07:25: In fact, the American Declaration was founded.

00:07:31: So just a grouping of questions here on Dracos did anyone in Cyprus pay attention to the fact that halfway across the world some american colonists declared independence?

00:07:43: And I'm asking this because i'm interested.

00:07:45: we need a place to start.

00:07:46: but of course Greece is the cradle for democracy and western civilization.

00:07:53: so did the Cypriots in ancient Greek democratic ideals, which we see sort of passed then through the Enlightenment values of the American founding fathers.

00:08:07: In other words did they believe in democracy that all men are created equal?

00:08:11: That people have rights and political power only comes from consent?

00:08:18: Well not in seventeen seventy six I mean Cyprus was an Ottoman province.

00:08:25: Greece didn't exist either a state.

00:08:30: Obviously that's about fifty-five years away, right?

00:08:35: And Cyprus was part of the Ottoman Empire at the time.

00:08:38: I would classify it in seventeen seventy six as probably being a backwater of The Ottoman Empire .The Ottoman empire did not do whole lot in Cyprus or with Cyprus and at time when the Cypriot Orthodox Church had become quite powerful, I would say a powerful arm of The Ultimate Administration.

00:09:06: During this period we're essentially seeing instability generated from below really because of things like poor harvest too much tax.

00:09:19: so there were revolts in the island but the vast majority of population was peasants And both Christians and Muslims would have been involved in many of these revolts.

00:09:33: Sometimes they did receive support from the elites, if you like against the administration but not usually... But often there were also against this revolts that as for The American War Of Independence I doubt very much That it would've registered In any great capacity in Cyprus at the time.

00:09:56: What about some of these ideals though?

00:09:58: that when we look back at the American Declaration this idea, you know government comes from the consent Of The People.

00:10:05: or That Every At Least Property Mail Should Have Some Say In

00:10:12: How?

00:10:22: an Eastern Ottoman-type place.

00:10:26: Definitely Cyprus's eastern Ottoman type, even when the Greek War of Independence comes around in the eighteen twenties and the Archbishop at that time Kiprianos was visited by members of the Philly Gheateria The Friendly Society And they say to him look you know can we spread the revolt to Cyprus?

00:10:49: What can Cyprus do?

00:10:50: Can you contribute?

00:10:50: he says Ahmad we're out, we are staying out of this.

00:10:55: We do not want to bring the sky falling onto our

00:11:00: heads.".

00:11:01: In the end it didn't help him because he was executed as part of the governor's desire to reduce the power of the church.

00:11:11: but there were no real threats in Cyprus at that time.

00:11:15: The Orthodox Church in Cypress is quite happy being empowered within the Ottoman system where there was no real move in any direction towards democracy.

00:11:30: Interesting, I just want to point out to our audience now that the role of The Orthodox Church is sort-of central to Cypriot history and we'll be hearing a lot about it for an American audience.

00:11:43: I think it's hard for us to understand the great influence of a formal church could have over a nation because we sort went down, let's separate religion and government.

00:11:56: But in Cyprus will see that is not the case.

00:12:00: A final question i had on this period around seventeen seventy six Was there ever a sense amongst Turkish or Greek Cypriots at the time that the island of Cyprus could and should just be independent, was not even conceivable?

00:12:17: It wasn't conceivable in seventeen seventy six.

00:12:21: That's definitely for sure.

00:12:23: you know it wasn't really conceivable.

00:12:26: when was it ever conceivable?

00:12:27: You know, there were people who did suggest independence from time to time before the nineteen fifties.

00:12:37: But yeah we'll come back to that I assume in our discussions but certainly not In the eighteenth century or even in the nineteenth century.

00:12:48: Okay, good.

00:12:49: So we are gonna come back to that and again.

00:12:51: secret history is very complex And we're racing through a lot of time.

00:12:56: but we do want to get to the next sort of key point which is British rule.

00:13:01: so Just as quickly as possible you said the Ottomans were in control of Cyprus In seventeen seventy six.

00:13:07: how did he got from that period?

00:13:08: To British rule?

00:13:10: yes around one hundred years later.

00:13:12: actually in eighteen seventy eight The Ottomans had just lost the war with the Russians.

00:13:45: Referred to the Treaty of Paris, which had ended the Crimean War.

00:13:49: Which said that any revision of Ottoman territory was for joint agreement with great powers.

00:13:57: So once this was so-to speak accepted they were heading towards a congress in Berlin and prior to that The British government negotiated might be not the right word but more or less forced the Sultan to accept a deal in which The British would agree To come to the aid of the Ottomans In, in a future war against Russia On the condition that it grants It the right to occupy and administer Cyprus With a view to establishing as A base.

00:14:36: An naval base an army base.

00:14:39: What followed from this was That once the British went to Cyprus and this is the subject of my first book which you mentioned before British imperialism in Cyprus, The Inconsequential Possession.

00:14:51: When they got there They realized that This place...this Is not a great Place To have A base I Mentioned Before Ottoman Backwater.

00:15:00: They Didn't Quite Understand How Much Of A backwater Cyprus Was.

00:15:04: It didn'T Have Any Roads To Speak Of.

00:15:08: it Didn'T Have The Harbour That They Were Hoping For.

00:15:11: or When they took a look at the harbour, at Farm Augusta They realised that it needed to spend money To make it worth using.

00:15:21: And even though It actually wouldn't have cost A great deal of money At least You know implement The first stage Of renovating the Harbour.

00:15:31: They decided Go ahead!

00:15:33: The place was very hot Stiflingly Hot and there began to be Controversies about health of troops.

00:15:43: things just went from bad to worse in terms of the stories coming out of Cyprus until The government decided that it wasn't gonna pay To make Cyprus a base basically.

00:15:56: and then, of course not that long thereafter A liberal government under William Gladstone occupied Egypt Even though that occupation was meant to be temporary And for many, many years it was referred to as such.

00:16:13: They of course stayed on and made use of the what we might call The Grand Harbor Of Alexandria.

00:16:21: .And of course ,the other point to make is that British already had one of the great harbors in the Mediterranean under their control.

00:16:28: if you've ever been to Malta You can't...you cannot deny the extraordinary harbor entire protection from all sides, whereas Fam Augusta which was the only place in Cyprus where you could have any type of enclosed harbour.

00:16:47: That is actually relatively open.

00:16:52: by comparison certainly to Valletta.

00:16:56: I'm already getting a sense that British rule in Cypress Is nothing like The State Of The Thirteen Colonies In The United States.

00:17:04: What We Have In The Thirteenth Colonies?

00:17:08: British and European colonists coming, booting out the native people.

00:17:13: And saying this is now ours but we're modeled... We are British subjects!

00:17:18: We have British

00:17:18: citizens!!

00:17:19: We have rights right?

00:17:21: We are going to have our own legislatures here.

00:17:24: We swear allegiance to King in Parliament But we have local control.

00:17:27: We have our judiciary.

00:17:29: We've got our own militias.

00:17:30: We're pretty independent..but we consider ourselves to have political rights And I'm sensing this is not the state of The population of Cyprus.

00:17:41: So, i guess the question that I want to ask here Is like how does the British government conceive Of the rights of a Cypriot person?

00:17:48: They're NOT british subjects.

00:17:50: Do they have any legal protections?

00:17:52: How has ANY OF THIS GOVERNANCE WORKING?

00:17:56: Well it's a bit Unusual.

00:17:58: until nineteen twenty-five when cyprus does become A crown colony and then They become British subjects.

00:18:05: However, until that time Cyprus goes through several sort of phases in their status but In terms of the rights of Cypriots.

00:18:15: when the Liberal government does come to power in eighteen eighty...in eighteen eighty two It announces that Cyprus is going get a legislative council.

00:18:25: Now what's quite interesting about this Legislative Council?

00:18:29: Is That it basically gave a local majority to the Cypriots.

00:18:36: However, if there was a deadlock in the council The High Commissioner had their deciding vote.

00:18:44: Now...the way that numbers worked out In terms of demographics.

00:18:50: It was based on the demographics.

00:18:52: it worked out That the elected members who were all locals.

00:18:57: Then you have your nominated members Who are British.

00:19:01: If you added your British members and your Muslim Members, And then you added their deciding vote of the High Commissioner.

00:19:10: They could outvote The non-Muslim Members as they were referred to in other words the Greek Cypriots although there was a time also when some marinates Were elected but that's another story.

00:19:23: Basically There is this idea That the British instituted divide and rule right from the beginning.

00:19:29: any of that.

00:19:33: In fact, in the early eighteen eighties when the Liberals came to power they rejected a proposal from The High Commissioner that the English language should be introduced into schools alongside local languages.

00:19:44: there was no plan to remove them.

00:19:46: it was just to introduce English.

00:19:48: and the colonial secretary at the time Lord Kimberley said why do we need to introduce english?

00:19:55: Greek is a european.

00:19:57: I've always had this feeling that, you know an opportunity was sort of missed then.

00:20:02: That would have brought the English and the Cypriots a little closer together but...that just went to show how much respect particularly Phil Hellenic liberal Britain if you like had for Greece being Greek And also linking Cyprus too.

00:20:22: so even though Cyprus is Part of the British Empire wasn't a crown colony at that time, but still part of The British Empire even though under Ottoman sovereignty That they were considering the Greek Supriates as part Of that wider Greek family.

00:20:41: At the same Time do you think that the mere presence of?

00:20:47: British governors soldiers, etc.

00:20:51: started slowly introducing some concepts of these Anglo-American concepts of constitutional rights or Enlightenment ideas and then tying them back to Ancient Greece in their ancient heritage?

00:21:08: Well absolutely the legislative council was actually one at the time when it was introduced in eighteen eighty-two.

00:21:21: Malta had been part of The British Empire for most that century, right?

00:21:26: From the Napoleonic Time.

00:21:29: and yet It did not have such what we might call a Liberal Legislative Council .It Did Not Have One In Which There Was A Local Majority.

00:21:39: The Legislative council the primary institution in which Cypriots were introduced to democratic processes and constitutional rule.

00:21:53: Unfortunately, The British did not develop that council or really the constitution beyond Even after Cyprus became a crown colony.

00:22:08: in nineteen twenty five, you know They would increase the number of members but then they would also increase their The unofficial note that the Exactly the members who were not it?

00:22:19: Not elected.

00:22:19: The British members.

00:22:20: and so they will always manage to keep the numbers In which the High Commissioner or later the governor would have a deciding vote until such time as in nineteen thirty one.

00:22:34: Cypriots at the time were beginning to suffer from The Great Depression.

00:22:40: By nineteen thirty-one, I would say substantial progress in the development of Cyprus In certain areas such as agriculture public health infrastructure Particularly communications both internally and externally, you know the harbors were much better And so forth.

00:23:05: but The Great Depression started to hit Cyprus.

00:23:08: There were riots what we might call food riots and peasants destroyed warehouses or meals Or whatever it might have been by this point in time.

00:23:21: the nationalist movement was not strong But It Was there had its very strong idea of Cyprus wanting to unite with Greece.

00:23:34: And it attempted to capitalize on this opposition and discontent around the Great Depression, and organized a demonstration in which The Government House in Nicosia burnt to the ground Basically led to the suspension of the Legislative Council And the Constitution.

00:23:58: I'm Andrekos, before we get to the burning of The Government House... ...I just want a stronger sense what it was like to be a Cypriot imperial subject and then kind-of a better British subject once officially becomes a crown colony.

00:24:16: So you mentioned this legislative council.

00:24:21: I know an Irish historian will yell at me.

00:24:23: It sort of sounds like the Irish model where The British are, okay well we'll have some local rule there but At the end of day Parliament can override anything they don't Like.

00:24:33: yeah Okay fine But.

00:24:35: but the other thing i just kind Of wanted to focus a little bit on was the judiciary Which is really interesting.

00:24:42: To what extent Is Britain introducing more of A british Model laws and a system of justice an illegal system?

00:24:52: that also is kind of introducing concepts then generally speaking, political freedom in the rights of man?

00:24:59: very much all men are created equal stuff from the US declaration of independence.

00:25:04: And sort of inserting that ideologically into the Cypriot population.

00:25:10: when In the early decades of British rule The British basically did not make substantial changes to the Ottoman way of doing things or to Ottoman laws.

00:25:23: They did tweak what we might, I think it's fair to say they tweaked things...they made the judiciary bearer in certain respects.

00:25:33: for example you know they did away with Ottoman system not allowing a Christian to testify against them.

00:25:40: Muslim Judiciary itself does not really begin to take on a British face until much later.

00:25:55: Until Cyprus is annexed by the British in nineteen fourteen, we're talking about a British façade on top of an ultimate sort-of face if you like.

00:26:07: Yes!

00:26:07: A lot laws are introduced but they

00:26:11: were done

00:26:11: through modifying previous Ottoman laws, or introducing new laws that may never have been there for whatever reason but adopting a sort of Ottoman style of doing it with the sort-of composite British facade really.

00:26:31: It's not until much later on like I said that it begins to change better...it never totally changes

00:26:39: Okay.

00:26:39: And then so you mentioned, you mention in nineteen twenty five a couple of times and this is pivotal in the development of the story again.

00:26:45: we're going to get to The Burning Of Government House In one but first I want To do This Nineteen Twenty-Five.

00:26:51: So in nineteen Twenty-five Cyprus Becomes A British Crown Colony.

00:26:56: Which Sort Of Enhances?

00:26:58: The Status Of Your Average Cypriot?

00:27:00: Sure

00:27:02: Now A Cypriote Can Like Move To London As Many Did Right and have like work rates, residency rights.

00:27:09: Is this one of the advantages to becoming a Crown Colony?

00:27:13: Yeah I mean technically they could've moved before that as well.

00:27:17: so until nineteen twenty five Cypriots were given an anomalous status in which they would be protected by British if it went overseas except within the Ottoman Empire although there was instances on which Cypriots did appeal for Ottoman protection within the Ottoman Empire.

00:27:42: But, this status was obviously totally unsatisfactory.

00:27:46: it caused a lot of problems to Cypriot's overseas.

00:27:50: you know what is this weird status here that... So really nineteen twenty-five did put an end to all of that confusion and did allow Cypriotes to move more freely.

00:28:03: in terms of migration, Cypriots did begin to look to migrate overseas just before World War One.

00:28:12: It was only a small wave of this movement and there were quite a few who went to the Americas.

00:28:22: broadly speaking because I'm including Latin America World War One ended, put an end to that because the British wanted to establish a mule corps.

00:28:34: To be sent to the Macedonian front.

00:28:38: so they basically stopped Cypriots who were of you know The right age So-to speak from migrating to facilitate this recruitment.

00:28:48: and then after world war one ends Cypriot once again begin to look to move.

00:28:56: But you're right, it's really not until the late nineteen twenties that Cypriots are moving in larger numbers to the UK and to a lesser extent Australia.

00:29:09: In America there already restrictions and quotas by this point.

00:29:14: Australia begins to restrict Cypriot as well.

00:29:18: What the U.K does is... It makes it harder for Cypriotes it makes them sort of jump through a few other hurdles before they can, but doesn't have the same type of restrictions as The United States or Australia.

00:29:33: Well one of the reasons that I wanted to talk about now emigrating to Britain and particularly London because there's very big even at this time Cypriot population in London And i'm trying to trace where some of these concepts Republic of Cyprus, I'm thinking that as Cypriot men primarily are moving to London they're in an environment where again there getting lots of ideas Western European Anglo-American ideas about constitutions.

00:30:09: Yes

00:30:09: western types and judiciary's not just keeping those in london right.

00:30:14: this is another route that ideologically Sort of Ottoman influence then is being reduced because these people are writing back and going Back to Cyprus in being like hey, why?

00:30:26: Are we fighting for the British when we don't have rights?

00:30:28: you know We're British subjects.

00:30:30: And now we have a fight in World War one and world war two.

00:30:33: What's a lot of these London Cypriots who are kind of bringing these ideas of you?

00:30:38: You know The rights of all men our created equal.

00:30:41: we should Only be governed if we consent to those who are governing us.

00:30:46: We are not beneath anything else.

00:30:49: We ought to have some form of self-government.

00:30:51: and that's coming again through the immigration Through London, yeah

00:30:56: Absolutely I mean there.

00:30:59: number of Cypriots to the UK really takes off in Nineteen twenty nine throughout the thirties.

00:31:05: It's very high and continues to be so after World War two.

00:31:09: In the thirties, there's a very strong communist element.

00:31:15: Cypriots involved in The Communist Party of Great Britain and There is a strong strain there Of self-government And self determination as well.

00:31:27: and eventually it comes Very strongly under the control of Argyll which was formed in nineteen forty two to replace the previous Communist party in Cyprus.

00:31:37: The the first Communist Party of Cyprus was opposed to Aenosys.

00:31:43: Agel however, Was in favor of Aenoses.

00:31:47: Initially it supported self-government and returned To constitutional rule which as I said had been suspended In nineteen thirty one But then later in the nineteen forties It adopted a position on the right wing immediate enosis.

00:32:10: You know, the right wing called that Enosis and only Enosis.

00:32:13: a girl called the immediate Enosis if there was no real difference however but in terms of London Cypriots There were others who had A different position And you might know my article revisiting the road to separate independence where I introduce a guy Who?

00:32:33: Was really In many respects lost to history, Jason Lukia Nu who basically was if you like a liberal and probably supported the Liberal Party in the UK.

00:32:52: Certainly had links to The Liberal Party In the UK And he is exactly what your describing...in the sense that He wanted Cyprus To Become Independent.

00:33:07: He believed that its future lay in the Greek and Turkish Supriets Creating this independent state.

00:33:16: So he was probably one of the only ones who expressed these views openly And To In official circles are making proposals even to the British during the mid-Nineteen fifties and even having influence in relation to Makarios, but independence

00:33:43: was

00:33:43: not favored by the Greek supreme political elites.

00:33:49: The story of Jason Lukia knew I think is so interesting because when i look at all the constellation politics and Cyprus at the time.

00:34:00: The one that I read about, he sounds like

00:34:06: Yes.

00:34:07: In his political ideals, we don't have to be sort of governed by our religious backgrounds.

00:34:14: We can be independent and some sort of Anglo-American model the rule of law A constitution I'm like this guy is one that for me seems he's most influenced by the same political ideas that influence The American founders.

00:34:30: But...

00:34:32: I'll let you comment on it later because I just want you to do a quick summary now of basically the main grievances that these three different, broadly speaking.

00:34:44: Three different types of Cypriots have against being under The British.

00:34:49: and These all culminate first in this burning of government house which we've mentioned a couple times.

00:34:55: but like We got First we've got the Enosis Cypriot who on independence?

00:35:00: But then joining with Greece, then we have the Toxin maybe the Turks who want to be separate.

00:35:08: And Then We Have The Jason Lukianu Types Who Want Some Sort Of Liberal American Style.

00:35:15: Don't Let Me American Style Cyprus.

00:35:20: Okay so yeah I mean by nineteen thirty one the idea or demand for enosis.

00:35:27: it wasn't just represented By One Group.

00:35:30: There Were Numerous Groups.

00:35:32: There were, if you like a traditional moderate group that believed the best way to reach it or achieve was work with the British and be friendly.

00:35:44: And allow them eventually grant the union of Cyprus with Greece.

00:35:51: But by nineteen thirty-one there is far more militant Enosis Group That has formed in nineteen twenty nine the National Radical Union of Cyprus, which was armed.

00:36:07: It had arms.

00:36:08: we know that it had arms...it was very much inspired by The Rise Of Fascism and later on Nazism And it Was willing to use weapons and violence against Cypriots and against the British To achieve their demand.

00:36:30: ...the majority of its leadership were expelled from the island after the nineteen thirty one burning of government house because they had been implicated in not just that but also other attacks on government properties and infrastructure.

00:36:48: And you know it's leaders, now I'm going to come to those who have really moderate views if your like more.

00:37:00: the leadership of this radical group established itself in Athens.

00:37:04: It still had its supporters back in Cyprus, some have also been you know sent into what we might call internal exile to remote parts of Cyprus where they couldn't cause any trouble.

00:37:18: but by nineteen thirty three thirty four that being released In nineteen thirty-three.

00:37:23: What The British Do is?

00:37:24: They announced advisory council.

00:37:30: So this advisory council would have not many, but some Cypriots who would be part of it and provide advice to the government.

00:37:40: now.

00:37:40: This was The first step that the British wanted to take And see how it works.

00:37:46: if it works too then move towards introducing a new constitution.

00:37:51: what I should've said and i haven't said is that there also existed an executive council on which they were Cypriots as well represented.

00:38:03: But this advisory council was something in addition to the Executive Council.

00:38:09: anyway, The Advisory Council was announced at the end of nineteen thirty-three and the British knew what they wanted right from very beginning.

00:38:16: one person To be honest for sure And That Was a Guy Called Antonio Estreanda Filidis Now Triamda Felidis was a leading lawyer.

00:38:26: He had been a nationalist and he, he was pro-enosis.

00:38:29: He was pro union of Cyprus with Greece but he was I would say appalled by the events of nineteen thirty one to him.

00:38:38: i think that

00:38:39: he got Appalled by The Violence

00:38:43: Yes And he just believed That this Was the wrong Way To go About Achieving Enosis.

00:38:52: He argued that he wanted Cyprus and Cypriots themselves to develop, become more educated the country.

00:39:03: To be developed in different ways economically its public health it's agriculture And so forth.

00:39:12: From this position they would be a much stronger place to advocate for union of Cyprus with Greece.

00:39:20: The problem was that he got himself into some trouble by agreeing to be part of the advisory council.

00:39:26: He is now considered a traitor, but his former allies...

00:39:31: By the extremist group?

00:39:32: ...the extremists who had once upon time been supported when he himself won a seat on the Legislative Council.

00:39:42: Now he attended only one meeting before he was shot and killed.

00:39:50: This is the subject of my last book because... The story was just so fascinating, it's a taboo subject really in Cyprus.

00:40:00: this story with all sorts of rumors going around that oh he was assassinated because he was a womanizer or because he Was this or That?

00:40:08: It's like well if He was a Womanizer then they would have assassinated quite A lot many more than Just one person.

00:40:15: This was clearly political.

00:40:17: The British knew it was political and they linked immediately to those who had been, you know sent abroad that were living in Athens And their supporters in Cyprus.

00:40:31: A guy was eventually charged put on trial.

00:40:34: There were witnesses two or three from memory That basically identified Who were behind this?

00:40:42: Because the guy who was charged Was merely being paid to do it.

00:40:47: He wasn't, you know and all linking it back to this previously the party The National Radical Union of Cyprus Now that national radical union of Cypress some of its members who were still around in the early nineteen fifties Were behind the formation of Eoraka Hence the title of book And Origins Of Eorakha.

00:41:14: So there was a clear line of continuity between those individuals, between the early group and the later one that we come to know in the nineteen fifties.

00:41:27: Now The Assassination Of Drinda Filidis Was A Tragedy For Cyprus Because He Was Potentially Even More Influential Than Somebody Like Jason Lucky Anu Later On Who Is An Influencial Separate Of The Diaspora?

00:41:42: But Triandafilides was a very prominent Cypriot.

00:41:46: I mean, everybody knew Triandaphilides.

00:41:49: He was the number one lawyer in the country even One of the bishops Even though he didn't like Triandaphilides.

00:41:57: when it got himself into some trouble with The British...he

00:42:00: hired

00:42:01: none other than Triandophilides to represent him.

00:42:06: Yeah, I just kind of want to get back in this period.

00:42:08: To get back a little bit into the British perspective Of what's happening in Cyprus.

00:42:14: so And I guess one question that has been sort of haunting me this entire time is specifically, and you've talked now about the Enosis group.

00:42:23: The radical violent Enosis groups then Triantaphilides who's a little bit more moderate Jason Lukako whom i have described as the American which but what we haven't really talked about Is the Toxin Group?

00:42:39: So What I would like You to do is just talk A Little Bit About Whats It Like in this period between nineteen thirty-one, the burning of government house.

00:42:48: Yeah like the next ten or fifteen years.

00:42:52: The Turkish Cypriot population.

00:42:54: but also from their perspective how throughout all these years is the British Government conceiving of the ethno religious diversity of Cyprus?

00:43:09: Let me start by saying that the Turkish position to Anosis was always that it was opposed and something that feared.

00:43:20: It feared what had occurred in other parts of the eastern Mediterranean such as, say, in Crete or elsewhere.

00:43:30: And later on there is an exchange between Greece and Turkey As a result of the Greek corps, the Azimah and the Turkish War of Independence that the Turkish Cypriots genuinely feared.

00:43:47: potentially they could be expelled or second-class citizens as part of Greece.

00:43:55: Obviously in Cyprus, they are roughly speaking a twenty percent demographic minority.

00:44:00: but if that Cyprus is part of greece then what?

00:44:04: A one per cent minority?

00:44:07: They know... Now Taksim was an idea which wasn't around until Elka came about.

00:44:17: Then I want to pause you right there, sorry.

00:44:20: It strikes me as fascinating that already at this point You're talking About the Turkish Cypriots As being fearful of Being second-class citizens.

00:44:29: so There's Already a concept Of like rights And protections and This idea That all Citizens should be equal.

00:44:38: again i'm Wondering where that is coming from.

00:44:41: And of course, I'm taking it back to the American Revolution always.

00:44:46: How does a Turkish Cypriot get the idea that i should have equal rights?

00:44:51: That strikes me as being very Western European Anglo-American Enlightenment concept.

00:44:59: Well... The concept of rights and who's say should I suppose determine the status of Cyprus basically grew out Woodrow Wilson's self-determination, national self determination.

00:45:16: Which of course you could argue grows out of the American Revolution.

00:45:20: but The difference being that for the Greek Cypriots they argued that where the majority It's our say so they had this concept of majoritarianism That wasn't based on political elections and parties, and ideology.

00:45:41: But purely based on ethnicity or ethno-religious identity.

00:45:48: because of course in Cyprus the two go hand in hand.

00:45:51: really now The Turkish Cypriots are reacting to this saying well we need as a minority We need to be protected And we have our own rights.

00:46:00: We were you know part of the Ottoman Empire.

00:46:03: So Turkey which supposedly inherited the Ottoman empire in some respects, although it's a different country supposedly secular.

00:46:12: They still look to Turkey just like the Greek Cypriots are looking towards Greece.

00:46:19: I mean if the greek Cypriot are looking toward Greece why shouldn't the turkish Cypriotes looked towards turkey?

00:46:24: is their sort of position?

00:46:26: Just because they're a demographic minority?

00:46:29: what does that matter?

00:46:31: now however there default... The first number one position for the British to stay So their concept of protection and the concept off.

00:46:42: well who can protect our rights is The British.

00:46:47: They argue that only the British can keep the peace so to speak And keep the country from falling apart which eventually actually becomes the British position as Well really, and that's how they go about preventing.

00:47:02: you know solutions earlier on let's say in the fifties and also how they hold on by basically saying we're needed here.

00:47:11: Right, so next question here I want to get us the formation of Eokha.

00:47:17: you said this is connected then to the formation Of The Turkish separatist concept of Toxim.

00:47:24: So why don't You talk me through?

00:47:25: The creation of Eoka in the creation of Toxic.

00:47:27: and Then eventually Get Us too How We get to Cypriot independence.

00:47:33: Okay So Eorke was formed actually in Athens by a group of far-right wing individuals, some who were connected to Cyprus and part of the National Radical Union of Cyprus which I mentioned earlier had formed at nineteen twenty nine.

00:47:52: Some members were exiled or whatever expelled and ended up in Greece.

00:47:57: Some of them are still alive and we're quite instrumental in which.

00:48:05: Makariosp III, who became Archbishop of Cyprus in the late nineteen forties...in nineteen fifty I should say.

00:48:13: He became archbishop.

00:48:15: he was part of the formation Of this organization Which Was to use violence In order To achieve Anosis and they recruited Cypriot who had lived for most of his life in Greece and was a Greek army officer.

00:48:38: at the time he was a colonel, Colonel George Grievous.

00:48:42: And Grievous has been essentially a leader of a paramilitary group.

00:48:49: during their Second World War and during the Greek war of independence there were a lot of far-right wing individuals.

00:48:59: German occupation.

00:49:00: The Germans, however they wanted to work with a certain set of people and certain type of person who was amenable to their you know what?

00:49:11: They wanted to do.

00:49:12: Grievous was an individual highly volatile figure so even though he would have loved to have worked with the Germans ,they didn't want to work cooperation, and then he makes his name as well during the Greek civil war.

00:49:34: Did I say War of Independence?

00:49:35: I meant Greek Civil War.

00:49:38: but when he attempted to enter greek politics after the greek civil war it all went pear shaped.

00:49:45: so then he's looking for something and this was the next thing Go back to his homeland.

00:49:50: If I can use that term, I don't know if he would have used that term because He was so immersed in this idea of uniting Cyprus with Greece.

00:49:57: That is home land was Greece and you wanted Cyprus to be part of Greece.

00:50:02: So here becomes the military leader of Eoraka.

00:50:05: now as for The British very quickly after the Second World War cypress Increasingly becomes more

00:50:12: and more

00:50:12: important.

00:50:13: has they use as their years go on?

00:50:15: Because there losing parts of their empire left right and center, including in the Middle East And particularly The big one.

00:50:25: Of course is there you know?

00:50:27: basically they're pushed out of their base in Egypt So

00:50:31: heading towards the Suez crisis.

00:50:32: now

00:50:33: Yeah, so as early as nineteen fifty-two the British have to make a call.

00:50:39: You know They're gonna have to evacuate their base there?

00:50:41: So what are that?

00:50:42: where are they going to put it?

00:50:44: Cyprus?

00:50:46: This all is happening at the same time.

00:50:48: It's, it's... The Greek Cypriots.

00:50:50: they're one that steps behind.

00:50:53: you know what

00:50:53: I mean?

00:50:55: Very bad time to be doing what their planning to do.

00:50:58: as for the Turkish Cypriot it's very interesting.

00:51:01: in the early Elka began its activities on the first of April of nineteen fifty-five.

00:51:08: As i have mentioned or hinted the core of elka were far right wing Greeks and Greek Cypriots.

00:51:17: Now, the Turkish Cypriot initially their leadership initially argued that The British should stay in held with that line but very quickly That line became very anachronistic In this world of nineteen fifty five.

00:51:33: So they then began to look towards Turkey because They realized that potentially the British

00:51:42: cannot

00:51:42: protect them anymore so the protection that they need in their eyes is going to come from Turkey.

00:51:51: Now, there's sort of helped in this regard because The British invite Turkey To give their opinion on what's going on in Cyprus for instance at the London conference In which Greece turkey and the British are represented but no Cypriots were represented.

00:52:06: But the position of the Turkish Cypriot leadership Basically very quickly becomes partition or if you like taxing.

00:52:15: And they also form their own Turkish defense force, TMT as it's known by its English translated and acronym.

00:52:26: Basically the British do during this period implement what we might call a divide-and-rule strategy to hang on arguing that you know if it's just going to blow up.

00:52:47: For me, what is really interesting as the concept of rights—the rights of Turkish Cypriots and Greek Cypriot, muddying waters with ethnic religious conflict which takes away this idea that everyone there ought to be politically equal despite their ethnic or religious background.

00:53:06: And Britain does have a unique long political tradition establishing this, but also their kind of imperial sense is conflicting with the sense that they can't quite figure a way out.

00:53:27: They're not strong enough to do it by force as you said.

00:53:30: I always compare this now to the consequences of The British Empire's great successes in the Seven Years War.

00:53:41: They bet off more than they can chew, and won against the French but then got these thirteen colonies who decided to rebel.

00:53:51: It empowered those thirteen colonies rather that we want them independent.

00:53:57: so sometimes the British Empire success turns into its final Failures and that's sort of what we're getting to here in Cyprus.

00:54:06: And they have a situation, They can't manage

00:54:10: right?

00:54:10: Yeah I mean after the Second World War The British offered Cyprus a constitution.

00:54:18: By this point however Although We are very early on In the Cold war That we need To remember that the cold war One Of the first Battlegrounds of the Cold War was Greece With the Greek Civil War.

00:54:33: What this means?

00:54:34: is that?

00:54:35: and what occurs?

00:54:36: Is that the Greek Civil War?

00:54:37: although it doesn't spread to Cyprus The politics of the greek civil war does spread to cyprus And even as early as you know, they use forty six forty seven.

00:54:49: we see members Of for example grievances.

00:54:54: As it was known there.

00:54:55: he organization in Cyprus operating trying to manipulate For instance the election of an archbishop.

00:55:06: There is a Archbishop who only lasts around forty days and he dies under very suspicious circumstances with numerous witnesses, individuals arguing that He did not die from natural death.

00:55:22: And Very quickly.

00:55:23: we have an exiled Bishop Who had returned to Cyprus Not very long before whom the British described as senile and was probably the mastermind of the assassination of Triandafilides back in January of thirty-four, suddenly elected as Archbishop.

00:55:42: So he's the one just before the younger Macarius who replaces him when he dies.

00:55:49: but for The British Cold War is full swing.

00:55:53: they allow all these previous people whom they had exiled whom they had linked to the assassination of Trianda Felidis in thirty-four, and so forth.

00:56:06: And so on... They allowed them to return and take an active political life in Cyprus

00:56:12: as

00:56:14: a bulwark against communism because our GEL was highly successful controlling trade unions.

00:56:24: that basically what we have still do is Argyle trade unions and then we have the others.

00:56:33: And Argyles was always sometimes referred to as The Old Trade Unions, because the right wing wanted its own trade union.

00:56:46: Yeah!

00:56:46: British did not want Argylles to prosper.

00:56:52: They banned it they tried to stamp out.

00:56:56: All the while, Far Right is the one that's preparing for this violence.

00:57:02: That breaks out in April of and nineteen fifty-five was a monumental failure in intelligence from British perspective.

00:57:12: Can you just describe what happens in nineteen

00:57:16: fifty five?

00:57:16: So Eorke begins its activities In April of nineteen fifty Five.

00:57:20: Its plan Is to attack British installations using sabotage, to attack British military and police personnel.

00:57:31: And also members of the administration To attack Greek Cypriots who are members of The Police Turkish Cypriot as well Members Of The Police and security forces more generally Or people Who Are Opposed To Their Views.

00:57:50: Do they accompany this with a declaration of independence in any respect, or do you just do it?

00:57:55: No.

00:57:56: They put out a Declaration not of Independence but of union and Greece.

00:58:02: It's

00:58:04: the Declaration of Enosus, not Independence.

00:58:06: Yes.

00:58:07: The Declaration on Enoses references to the Greek War of Independence as well as to the three hundred Spartans so forth... narrative of Greek successful military campaigns, and they draw upon the Greek War of Independence a lot in their propaganda.

00:58:32: And yeah basically unleash this violence.

00:58:36: I mean it's unusual because there is no other really example like it the Second World War.

00:58:49: I mean, the only thing that's anti-British about it is that the British are the ones who are holding Cyprus and they want to remove

00:58:57: them.

00:58:58: there's no serious anti-colonial rhetoric or position.

00:59:04: their position had always been... Their ideologues have always been opposed to independence very deliberately and very openly.

00:59:12: A key figure Is Boligarbus.

00:59:15: Ioenides Goes back to the nineteen early thirties and goes back to The Assassination of Trianda Fili.

00:59:22: This is one Of the key figures, but you know He was a very prolific journalist And he would consistently write that we are

00:59:33: better

00:59:34: under British Control Colonial control I mean.

00:59:40: they didn't even have A constitution so it's quite authoritarian.

00:59:44: We are better off like this than having self-government, then having a constitution.

00:59:48: So basically they refused to have representative institutions.

00:59:55: Why?

00:59:56: Because well potentially through representative institutions Through working together with Greek and Turkish Cypriots whether the different ideologically or you know from a different ethno religious group.

01:00:09: Potentially They might end up not wanting analysis.

01:00:14: Yeah, I'm struck by the concept again that all of these well most of the varying Political opinions in Cyprus.

01:00:23: They're all quite scared to actually becoming what Cyprus is today.

01:00:27: That's right

01:00:27: there like pet.

01:00:28: they're petrified of being a republic Like because no we want to be under the British.

01:00:35: We'd rather be under The Turks or part of Greece heaven forbid were actually a member of the European Union and a functioning Republic.

01:00:44: democracy in constitutional republic It's just it's almost funny,

01:00:49: it's the accidental Republic Or the reluctant Republic as one academic many years ago Used as the title of his book.

01:00:58: And why don't you?

01:00:59: Quickly now as we're getting to the end here.

01:01:01: Just talk me through those last fates.

01:01:04: is until then Cyprus becoming independent?

01:01:07: so

01:01:08: We are

01:01:08: at this of the uprising of Eoka in nineteen fifty-five and Brit Cyprus does become independent than in Nineteen sixty correct?

01:01:18: Yes,

01:01:19: yes.

01:01:19: So just can you briefly talked me through that period.

01:01:23: So, very quickly.

01:01:24: By nineteen fifty-eight the situation in Cyprus is a lot worse than what it was in nineteen fifty five.

01:01:30: The British had attempted to on several occasions To introduce a constitution and they even have A Constitution drawn up by Lord Radcliffe.

01:01:41: Lord RadCliffe Was that guy who drew the partition line of India.

01:01:45: but Simultaneously They also were from very early On supporting the Turkish position to the point where they also put on the table, The Possibility of Partition.

01:01:59: So this is in.

01:02:00: and nineteen fifty six early fifty seven then we have.

01:02:05: We Also Have The Suez Crisis.

01:02:07: And Then We Get To Nineteen Fifty Eighth And The Prime Minister Of Great Britain Is Now Harold Macmillan.

01:02:13: He Puts Forward This Idea Of A Partnership Plan.

01:02:17: The Partnership Plan Basically Envisaged The Period Of Self-Government In Cyprus under a constitution which envisaged considerable protective rights for the Turkish Cypriots and also envisage both Greek and Turkish government representation.

01:02:37: Now, the final sort of offer was that maybe one day Cyprus could become a tricondominium in which Britain Greece and Turkey would share sovereignty over Cyprus.

01:02:51: now all for Makarios was beginning to be very worrisome.

01:02:56: He had been exiled by the British in nineteen fifty six, to the Sacelle Islands where he was for about a year.

01:03:03: Sorry I'm just going to interrupt once we're starting to talk about Makarios and this figure so that the audience remembers that Andrekos read the quotation at.

01:03:22: Andrecos has an opinion on that.

01:03:23: So this is this Makarios, who is a Archbishop

01:03:28: and basically you mentioned before about the importance of The Church in Cyprus?

01:03:33: The archbishop Is not simply the head of the church but also Has the title of ethnic.

01:03:38: and although the role of ethnic changed over time I did do book many years ago About This you know, moving from Ottoman basically arm of the Ottoman government to well attempting to be an

01:03:54: Arm of The

01:03:55: British Government and that didn't work.

01:03:57: To becoming the figure or leading figure of the NOSI's nationalist demand.

01:04:04: And Makarios being dynamic young American educated by the way he studied theology in Boston.

01:04:14: Nevertheless, a right-wing nationalist.

01:04:17: However by nineteen fifty eight he's beginning to realize that the whole situation started by Eocca is on the edge of a precipice and He realizes That it's not working And he needs to do something dramatic before The island potentially becomes partitioned.

01:04:37: So he makes A move By agreeing To meet with the president British Labor Party, who was a woman called Barbara Castle.

01:04:47: Who goes to Athens to meet him and they have a series of discussions.

01:04:52: I should point out that Makarios has also met with other people including Jason Lukia Nooh.

01:05:01: So he has in his mind something the idea of independence Was not new.

01:05:08: it was also discussed at The United Nations.

01:05:11: The Indian representative was very supportive of an independent Cyprus and setting aside, you know, ethno-religious identities.

01:05:21: Bakaryas decides that in order to stop partition he agrees to independence And set aside NOCs and partition.

01:05:33: Okay so here we're getting now September, and this is where you started.

01:05:39: This is what Macario says.

01:05:42: quote I would be prepared to accept the status of independence for Cyprus on The condition that this status shall not be changed either by union with Greece By partition or any other way unless United Nations Approve such a change.

01:06:00: and so you can just explain that now because this is drawing together all of these different crazy strands Of Cypriot history, and this is why the statement from Macarios.

01:06:09: Is it important?

01:06:10: That's right Because basically the most important part of the statement is the very last one Because although people have primarily only focused on the first part which is that he has Now dramatically switched and changed to independence independence is not for him the final solution.

01:06:30: It's not the permanent solution which it was, for many others including of course Jason Lukianu.

01:06:38: Makarios says in that very last part unless approved by the United Nations.

01:06:45: so what occurs is that once Cyprus is independent The agreements they were terribly complicated.

01:06:53: however this systems of government and constitutions are there.

01:07:00: They're about power sharing, And they're about protecting the demographic minority in this case The Turkish Cypriots according to the Constitution our politically unequal community with the Greek Cypriot despite their demographic Minority status.

01:07:16: that's not what the constitution says.

01:07:18: it doesn't refer them as a minority In this sense anyway by In nineteen sixty three, the constitution is not being properly implemented by the government.

01:07:31: There are manufactured conflicts as a result of this or that and meanwhile both sides never gave up their arms totally.

01:07:43: while Eoka and the Grievous no longer exists, eoka however it has splintered into different groups led by different individuals.

01:07:53: However there is also an official group led by the Minister of Interior Poligad Pos Yorcagis who is involved very closely with radical elements in The Greek Army.

01:08:09: Now in November of nineteen sixty-three, Makarios puts forward thirteen proposals to amend the constitution.

01:08:15: The majority of these changes will water down Turkish Cypriot protections and rights And before that Turkish Cyprus could respond because they stated officially That they would respond.

01:08:28: in January the minister of interior orchestrates a little event A little clash which then snowballs And this leads to what essentially is a civil war between Greek and Turkish Cypriots that lasts until, well I mean on-and off.

01:08:48: it pretty much lasts until nineteen seventy four.

01:08:51: But in terms of that initial period It goes up until about August of nineteen sixty four.

01:08:56: There's another round of violence in nineteen sixty seven but you know You understand?

01:09:02: That little comment at the end in nineteen fifty-eight unless approved by the United Nations.

01:09:08: The whole plan was to go to the united nations and, By removing certain constitutional rights And also removing the treaties that prevented Cyprus from joining Greece!

01:09:20: The government of Makarios Was going To Go to the United Nations and argue That for self determination Meaning the majority Greek Cypriots meaning Enosis.

01:09:35: It all went pear-shaped again, however.

01:09:38: And it is where we are today.

01:09:39: if one goes to Cyprus One will be on a divided island with the Republic in this house That's the member of the EU and then at Northern Turkish Cyprus which is Acknowledged by Turkey because of the Turkish invasion In nineteen seventy four Which they argue was to protect Turkish Cypriots from Enosis that Makarios had planned.

01:10:04: And we are now going to end it right here, and I will just have some final comments and allow you then...to make a very final comment.

01:10:14: This history of Cyprus is so fascinating!

01:10:16: Of course It's unfair for me always think about how this connects to American democracy in American History and the American Declaration of Independence but what really strikes The American democratic experience is one the fact that we have this Anglo Concept of constitutional rights of citizens Subjects but for whatever reason all men are created equal and or equal before the law.

01:10:48: But it's in.

01:10:49: This is what really strikes me about Cypriot history, the second aspect Of that as even as far back as the seventeen seventies people like Thomas Jefferson were saying What screws all this up is religion.

01:11:04: Our system, the American System can only work if we don't privilege in any governmental way one religion over

01:11:11: another.".

01:11:12: And then his notes on The State of Virginia and the seventeen seventies.

01:11:16: as he was a delegate for the Virginia Commonwealth before the Declaration of Independence they always already recognized like Religion can't be part of this, because that's just going to screw up all the model we are having.

01:11:29: And what you see about this thorny problem of Cyprus is it's ethnic religious conflict preventing from being solved.

01:11:39: So my solution as an imperial American would say they should be more American and get over their religious differences.

01:11:48: I ask all my guests in the series to reflect on the two hundred fifty year anniversary of The American Declaration Of Independence, but maybe you can end Andrei Kos by actually looking into the future.

01:12:01: Where do you think Cyprus will be?

01:12:04: In two thousand sixty a hundred years after independence?

01:12:11: Well... My mind saves one thing and heart saves another.

01:12:17: My mind says that there will be very little change from what we have today.

01:12:23: You know, my heart says I would love to see Cyprus having a go at being a bicomminal by-zone or federation in which they are two constituent states and central federal government.

01:12:38: That is the dream of me and hope to set aside what has transpired.

01:12:44: not forget but you.

01:12:46: Truth and reconciliation are going to be very important for any form of reunification And hopefully it happens before twenty sixty, but that would be my hope for twenty sixty.

01:12:59: Thank you very much professor Andreco

01:13:01: Svernada.

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