Scotland and the Declaration of Independence

00:00:07: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal and they're endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.

00:00:17: That among them is our life, liberty and the pursuit of

00:00:20: happiness.".

00:00:23: At this very time, THEY—that's The British—are permitting Their Chief Magistrate King George To send over not only soldiers in our common blood but scotch and foreign mercenaries to invade, and tell you just in blood.

00:00:42: Welcome To Life Liberty In The Pursuit Of Happiness.

00:00:45: a podcast commemorating the two hundred fifty year anniversary of the Declaration of Independence.

00:00:50: .The show is sponsored by the American Centrum in Hamburg Germany And I'm your host Andrew Sola.

00:00:56: Today we're finishing up our survey of reactions to the declaration of independence.

00:01:04: We've already released episodes on Ireland and Wales.

00:01:07: And so we're ending today with the Kingdom of Scotland!

00:01:11: Today there are about five point five million people living in Scotland, In The United States ten million Americans officially claimed to be of Scotch or scotch Irish descent... ...and the US Census from two thousand estimated that a further fifteen million People Are Of Scottish Descent.

00:01:28: So About Twenty-Five Million In All.

00:01:31: And the Scots have been an important part of American history since its very founding.

00:01:36: In fact, one could argue that British America was founded by a Scotsman—King James VI of Scotland who is also King James I of England and the first British-American colony, Jamestown, founded in sixteen oh seven —was named after him.

00:01:58: but by seventeen seventy-five that number had doubled to about seven percent, and by seventeen ninety it had doubled yet again to fourteen percent.

00:02:09: Also in seventeen ninety about twenty-seven percent of the inhabitants of Georgia were Scottish followed by South Carolina at twenty five percent Scottish And North Carolina at Twenty Percent Scottish.

00:02:23: In seventeen seventy-six, when the declaration was signed two of the fifty six of the signatories had been born in Scotland James Wilson and John Witherspoon.

00:02:32: And many others were Scottish descent The early Scottish settlers where a diverse group religiously economically and politically They had come to the colonies for different reasons and they had wildly different opinions about King George Parliament and the British Empire.

00:02:51: In fact, if we think of the War of Independence as an American Civil War.

00:02:56: We can also think of it a miniature Scottish civil war A war of Scots fighting Scots not in the Highlands of Scotland but in the hills North Carolina.

00:03:06: Indeed at the Battle of Kings Mountain in seventeen eighty Scottish-American Patriots defeated Scottish-american loyalists and important battle that helped to turn tide on southern campaign.

00:03:19: So, today we're going to explore Scotland and the Declaration of Independence.

00:03:24: What was Scotland like in the seventeen hundreds?

00:03:27: Why did the Scots move into the colonies?

00:03:30: what do they think about rebellion against Britain?

00:03:32: And how does the declaration of independence influence Scottish politics back home?

00:03:39: Here with me is Professor Frank Coliano.

00:03:44: Thank you Andrew

00:03:46: Frank is professor of history at the University of Edinburgh, Scotland.

00:03:50: He has authored numerous books on The American Revolution including A Revolutionary America, Seventeen Sixty-three to Eighteen Fifteen a Political History now in its fourth edition and he's also editor for the forthcoming volume.

00:04:06: The American revolution at two.

00:04:07: fifty twenty four historians reflect.

00:04:12: Frank, let's just start with those two passages that you brought up.

00:04:16: The first passage is the most famous passage we remember from the Declaration of Independence but forgive me for saying I'm not familiar.

00:04:30: So that

00:04:37: second passage about Scotch and other foreign mercenaries is from Jefferson's rough draft of the Declaration of Independence.

00:04:45: And it was cut out during the editing process by Congress, in partial reference to two Scots-in-the-Room you mentioned who might have said hey wait a second!

00:04:53: But its interesting on couple levels.

00:04:55: one is... It talks about soldiers with our common blood.

00:04:59: The king not only sending soldiers for our commonblood English soldiers, but Scotch and foreign mercenaries.

00:05:06: And the farranness of the Scots in other foreign merceneries are of course Germans But he's drawing a distinction there between people like himself although He was probably of Welsh descent as well as English descent if you will.

00:05:22: People have English dissent.

00:05:23: on the colonies The Scots There is an othering of Scots going on which was quite common In the eighteenth century, there was a surge in Scottish migration of the colonies and the figures you said at the top give some indication about that.

00:05:39: About forty thousand Scots emigrated to the colonies just between seventeen sixty-three And seventeen seventy five.

00:05:45: so this is surging arrivals from Scotland Just on the eve of The Revolution If we count the Scotts Irish and I realized how complicated That whole question If you count the Scots, Irish is about two hundred thousand emigrate during the eighteenth century.

00:06:03: So there are a lot of Scots and people of Scottish descent in the colonies And they're some tension around them not least because this applies to Jefferson in particular.

00:06:16: the large Virginia planters like Jefferson and George Washington were often indebted to Scottish merchants in Scottish factors, who they sold their tobacco.

00:06:25: So the image of Scots on the colonies was not entirely positive.

00:06:29: And I think that's reflected in that passage that Jefferson wrote his original draft that was excised by Congress.

00:06:39: Fascinating!

00:06:40: How about that

00:06:41: first

00:06:42: famous passage you chose?

00:06:43: Just briefly why did you choose to read it as well?

00:06:47: Yes, I mean that will be very familiar.

00:06:49: That's the money shot if you will from The Declaration of Independence.

00:06:52: Everybody knows that and you might ask what does it have to do with the Scots?

00:06:55: Well...the famous expression From John Locke is life liberty in property And Life Liberty In Property Is A Common Place Expression In The Anglophone Atlantic World In The Eighteenth Sanctuary And Thats The Formulation That Was Most Familiar To People.

00:07:14: It's a puzzle, if you will.

00:07:15: Why Jefferson said life liberty in the pursuit of happiness?

00:07:20: About fifty years ago Gary Willes, famous American public intellectual made an argument which I find quite persuasive arguing that The Pursuit Of Happiness comes from Scotland and the Scottish Enlightenment particularly Francis Hutchison who was professor moral philosophy at University Glasgow neighbor institution of mine.

00:07:41: it is interesting story because Hutchison actually born in Dublin He's associated with the Scottish Enlightenment, but he was Irish born.

00:07:48: So there is a circulation of ideas in these islands... ...in the eighteenth century beyond and we see reflection on that.

00:07:54: But Huckus' argument was people had a sense of happiness-a kind of moral sense.

00:08:02: It was one of the senses like smell or sight and that this is one of the things that inclined people to form societies, and to behave.

00:08:12: And so when Jefferson is talking referencing The Pursuit Of Happiness This can be directly tied to the influence of the Scottish Enlightenment.

00:08:21: Jefferson famously said many years decades after he wrote the Declaration of Independence I was just expressing what was in the air.

00:08:28: I think there's a bit of false modesty, but it is interesting that he makes a pivot from life liberty and property to life liberty in the pursuit of happiness.

00:08:49: Only a country that had California and it would have that in its founding document.

00:08:56: So make of that what you will.

00:08:58: so this but the irony being that The pursuit of happiness is not attributable to california, which of course was not estate in seventeen seventy six But to Scotland itself.

00:09:07: Yeah And I think it's important.

00:09:09: And I really like the fact that he chose to open with these two passages the one deleted passage about the deluge of blood that the Scots are bringing, which really clearly shows one side of the Scottish coin here.

00:09:23: Which is the loyalist British imperial side.

00:09:28: and we contrast then with this phrase you're saying The Pursuit Of Happiness represents Scottish American patriotism Theoretically founded our country and we see throughout the Declaration of Independence.

00:09:45: And I think We should keep those two ideas here through out, i mean Scotland was divided in conflicted itself back then when you See that Conflict reproduced In the colonies.

00:09:58: Very briefly can You explain?

00:10:00: The difference between the scots and the Scotch Irish?

00:10:04: Sure sure so.

00:10:06: the Scots irish were People, the historian Patrick Griffin's written a very good book about them called The People With No Name.

00:10:14: The Scots-Irish were people who migrated mainly Protestants and mainly Presbyterians I should say Who migrated from Scotland to Ulster in the seventeenth sanctuary as part

00:10:28: of

00:10:30: English expansion an English sponsored Expansion In Ireland An Imperial settlement in Ireland.

00:10:36: And they settled in Ulster.

00:10:38: And they are the antecedents, in many respects to today's Ulster Unionist population or The Unionist Population In Northern Ireland.

00:10:48: Or The North Of Ireland.

00:10:51: I'm not making a political statement about that place uh...or any intervention there.

00:10:56: So The North of Ireland and Northern Ireland depending on your preference.

00:11:00: And in the eighteenth century, many of their descendants—in some cases —the same people then emigrated to North America and settled there.

00:11:11: The Scotts-Irish as they were called or the Scotch-Ireishes that are called in North America are an incredibly important segment of population.

00:11:20: As I said a few minutes ago about two hundred thousand of them immigrated during the eightteenth.

00:11:25: Many of them emigrated to the colonies, particularly in Pennsylvania where they moved both west and south down the Appalachian mountain range which is why we get significant populations of both Scots and Scots-Irish.

00:11:39: In Pennsylvania Virginia North and South Carolina and Georgia And then the figures you cited at the top so there's a very substantial scots irish presence.

00:11:53: White people who live in Appalachia today are descended from those Scots-Irish, so there's a significant population.

00:12:00: Would it be fair to characterize the Scots Irish as primarily Protestant and Presbyterian?

00:12:06: And then these Scots to be characterized is primarily Catholic.

00:12:11: It would be right to call The Scots irish Primarily presbyterien.

00:12:15: the scots who emigrate or more mixed There are both Catholics and and Presbiterians.

00:12:21: Could we make the assumption that By and large, the Presbyterians in Protestants were more likely to be loyalists or patriots.

00:12:29: Or is that also difficult?

00:12:33: generalization to make.

00:12:34: That is a difficult generalization and make because we get some prominent Presbyterians, James Wilson among them John Witherspoon who support the revolution.

00:12:44: so it's not quite that simple.

00:12:46: although lots of the folks who are loyalists in the south were presbyterianist... It's very complicated.

00:12:54: you know, some of the former Jacobites and I'm sure we'll get to this who emigrated into the colonies after the seventeen forty-six...seventeen forty five forty six uh jacobi rising in Scotland were Catholics or sympathetic to a Catholic restoration of the catholic monarchy?

00:13:12: And they end up being loyalists.

00:13:15: A lot of them ended up being Loyalists is very complicated situation.

00:13:18: it doesn't easily.

00:13:19: um that kind of sociology of Loyalism does not help us when it comes

00:13:25: Right, and I think we learned that lesson too with the episode on French Canada.

00:13:30: You would expect perhaps that the French-Canadian Catholics would have joined The Revolution but indeed they didn't.

00:13:38: They chose to be loyal to a Protestant king which again warps or sort of challenges our assumptions about religion in the importance of religion And taking aside in a conflict like this.

00:13:52: Okay let's now go back to Scotland, you mentioned the Jacobite uprising and all of this.

00:13:58: And I just want to get a picture of what Scotland was like in the seventeen hundreds.

00:14:02: when we talk about migration We talked about push-and-pull factors.

00:14:06: So What is happening?

00:14:07: In Scotland?

00:14:08: that's pushing them out Of scotland in The seventeen hundreds and what's pulling Them towards the North American colonies?

00:14:16: i usually think About politics economics and religion but That might be different here.

00:14:22: I think economics is the most important factor until the end of this century, when there's a surge in immigration because of politics after the revolution.

00:14:30: But in terms of period before the American Revolution... ...I think economics has the answer.

00:14:34: Scotland was poor country at that point.

00:14:36: It's one reason why we see so many Scots in British Army for example and accepting posts from various parts of the British Empire.

00:14:44: There are huge out-migration of Scots during the eighteenth century to North America, but also London.

00:14:51: London is a favorite destination and that's largely motivated I think by an apparent lack of economic opportunity because the prevalence of Protestantism.

00:15:04: however in Scotland there are relatively high literacy rate as we see in colonial and eighteenth century New England for example.

00:15:16: successful often when they migrate to places like London or North America because of their, the skills and attributes that bring with them.

00:15:25: And so although there's some antipathy towards him as expressed by Jefferson in his original draft for The Declaration There's also, but some of that antipathy is a result to the fact that the Scots are perceived as successful when they migrate.

00:15:38: But back to your question as to what pushing them?

00:15:41: I think it's mainly poverty.

00:15:42: Scotland then now has very... The population in Scotland not evenly distributed.

00:15:48: so its country with huge amount countryside and thats really quite beautiful i would recommend all people should visit if you can But it's also an urban country.

00:15:57: So, its a place of urban centers.

00:15:59: the two biggest in the eighteenth century then and now are Glasgow and Edinburgh course.

00:16:04: but that central belt across the south of Scotland has a lot of towns And couple major cities.

00:16:11: Then we get sort other cities like Dundee for example That not insignificant in size.

00:16:16: so what see is We've got population In the so called Central Belt which is Urban and often not terribly wealthy, that's supplying a lot of migrants.

00:16:30: We think of Highlanders migrating And we do get migration from the Highlands.

00:16:34: The people who go to the Highland are often Gaelic speaking agricultural, their farm folk come from the Highlands and Islands.

00:16:43: But there aren't as many of them in terms of...in proportional terms There is the beginning of what will become to be known As The Highland Clearances are starting In the eighteenth century as well.

00:16:53: So we see some landlords enclosing Their land and forcing tenant farmers off their Land.

00:16:58: And so Some Of The People Who Migrate To America Are Rural Folk who migrate?

00:17:03: In both cases Whether They Be Rural Or Urban These Are People Who Are Migrating Mainly for economic opportunity.

00:17:12: And they scattered throughout the British Empire, not just North America but also as I said to London and to the Caribbean in other parts of the British empire.

00:17:23: We look at the religious part of this equation are seeing say in The Colony of Maryland a place where they could practice Catholicism without prejudice or... Are there Scottish sex that are like the Baptists or something, not particularly liked in The British Isles?

00:17:44: They're looking to go to the colonies for a little bit less repression.

00:17:48: There's a little of that although as I said it is mainly economic during most of the eighteenth century.

00:17:55: so what we see though is Scott's Presbyterian communities emerging again in the western parts of Virginia, north and south Carolina in Georgia that often find themselves at odds with the established still protested but anglican church.

00:18:13: In those colonies.

00:18:14: so we see you know The South Carolina Regulation which is a kind of rebellion proto-rebellion on the eve of the American Revolution in seventeen seventy one involves Scots and Scott scott's irish settlers at odds with low country planters and there is a religious dimension to that.

00:18:33: It's not only about religion, it's about politics as well but there is the religious dimension of that with Presbyterian settlers in the backcountry finding themselves on odds with Anglican planters from the Low Country.

00:18:46: Okay so we've looked economics little bit and religion.

00:18:51: now let us take sort other topic which is politics.

00:18:55: Scotland has long history of conflict with England, the British Empire.

00:19:01: You were talking about The Jacobite Uprising.

00:19:04: just help give our audience some sort of basic understanding what's going on politically and what these conflicting views are.

00:19:21: Sure, the British Empire only truly becomes British in seventeen oh seven with The Act of Union which brings Scotland together with England and Wales.

00:19:29: And so it's still a relatively new union for most of the period we're talking about.

00:19:36: Although

00:19:37: it was a voluntary union, Scotland is not conquered by England.

00:19:41: there.

00:19:45: Scotland has a much smaller population than England, it's about ten percent of the English population today.

00:19:51: And there is fear and belief not without some merit that the British Empire or the British state... ...is basically biased in favor of England!

00:20:10: give up their parliament with the act of union in seventeen oh seven.

00:20:13: they'd previously had us, as you indicated at the outset Andrew.

00:20:18: They shared a monarch but were seen to separate kingdoms.

00:20:23: With the active union that's no longer the case.

00:20:25: The Scottish Parliament is abolished and Scotland is governed from London.

00:20:33: there is some resentment as a consequence of that.

00:20:36: There are still separate Scottish institutions to this day, we have a separate education system and those institutions persist.

00:20:46: but there's tension in the relationship for reasons beyond my can because I'm not really a Scottish story to the eighteenth century.

00:20:56: There are series of rebellions or couple of rebellians in the eightteenth century, uh...in seventeen fifteen and seventeen forty-five in particular which seek a restoration Of The Stuart's—the Stuart dynasty To replace the Hanoverians as the kings of Great Britain.

00:21:17: And we see them both.

00:21:19: seventeen fifteen is seventeen forty five.

00:21:20: these so called Jacobite risings Jacobite reeds are like is the Latin for James.

00:21:26: They want to restore the Stuart monarchies.

00:21:30: These fail.

00:21:31: there's a religious element of this because the stewards or Catholic but not without significant bloodshed especially in seventeen forty five and seventeen forty six.

00:21:42: now This violence, these risings And the response to them as often seen As The English or British conquering or waging war against the Scots.

00:21:54: It's more complicated than that.

00:21:56: The support for Bonnie Prince Charlie, the pretender in seventeen forty-five uh...the Stuart Pretender as he is called by his critics was largely on the Highlands and Islands.

00:22:07: yet lowland scottes from the central belt From Edinburgh including Edmmer where I'm sitting today supported the British in suppressing that rising.

00:22:15: So it's more complicated than just English versus the Scots, almost always is and the history of Scottish-English relationship.

00:22:23: but what we see...in seventeen forty five is the British state extending an exercising considerable control over Scotland and that engenders some antipathy on the part of Scots.

00:22:37: so after the forty five as its called Some Scots go into exile, so those are political migrants.

00:22:46: Flora MacDonald is very famous as a woman who helped save Bonnie Prince Charlie the pretender during their rising.

00:22:54: she ends up in North Carolina.

00:22:56: She's probably the archetype for this migration.

00:23:00: So we do see some people going to political exile look at colonies As result of the aftermath of The Forty-Five.

00:23:06: and The Fortty-Fives also important which is, and I think this has largely forgotten in both English-centered discourse and American memory as well.

00:23:18: The British state has experienced suppressing a rebellion.

00:23:30: There are people in the British state and military who participated in suppressing The Forty-Five in Scotland.

00:23:37: And, in many respects, The Fortty-FIVE In Scotland seemed to be a greater threat because it was closer to home—and they successfully suppressed that rebellion through combination of force and then kind offering some reforms on the aftermath.

00:23:57: policymakers in London, I think in seventeen seventy five thirty years later when the American War of Independence breaks out and that's largely left out of the story because i think or it seen as this sort of um kind of footnote but II think its more important in terms of understanding some other choices.

00:24:17: The British make early on a war.

00:24:19: then we generally reckon

00:24:22: yeah well what do you?

00:24:25: religious, political economic conflicts in the colonies being reproduced and The British Isles.

00:24:32: I mean this is a perfect example here.

00:24:35: We have essentially a civil war in Scotland right?

00:24:39: You can call it rebellion.

00:24:40: Maybe we called us of Civil War.

00:24:42: you see people with different Religious beliefs People from different Economic cast because the Highland farmers are farmers.

00:24:50: the belt to lowlands city belts Central Belt Townies are townies.

00:24:56: So we get some.

00:24:56: this economic conflict, too.

00:24:59: And obviously there's this idea of political conflict when we think of the American Revolution being a rebellion against government from far away.

00:25:08: You know you have these scots saying why did you abolish?

00:25:11: The Scottish Parliament and move everyone to London?

00:25:15: We want more local rule and you can look at the American revolution.

00:25:19: is that they're?

00:25:20: so what do you think about sort of that?

00:25:22: Yeah, I think that's right.

00:25:23: I think it is a good frame and we really need to think of the American Revolution as a civil war.

00:25:33: It's both a British revolution And a British Civil War.

00:25:37: So i think thats the way to frame it.

00:25:40: Very much comes out from the tradition Of revolution in civil wars That we see In England Wales, Ireland and Scotland during the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries.

00:25:53: First you know The English Civil War of the sixteen forties...the glorious revolution of sixteen eighty-nine ...the Jacobite risings....and the American Revolution.

00:26:02: I think they're all.

00:26:04: one important way to think about them is in that context Because we call it the War of Independence and because the colonies won their independence, became The United States.

00:26:13: And as to beginning a different national history We've slightly forgotten I think that kind of continuity with the History Of Britain in the British Empire That precedes it.

00:26:24: Good let's talk about then that intellectual history.

00:26:27: Let's return now To the Scottish Enlightenment.

00:26:30: So what are these sort of specific ideas of self-rule?

00:26:36: life, liberty property pursuit of happiness.

00:26:39: Can you just unpack some of these what we think maybe wrongly as quintessentially American ideas?

00:26:47: How are they coming to the states from Scotland?

00:26:50: through The Scottish Enlightenment?

00:26:52: As I indicated a few minutes ago, Scotland is poor relative to other parts of British Empire in the eighteenth century relatively poor but well educated.

00:27:03: It's got these urban centers that are centers of commerce, it's got universities.

00:27:11: There are six ancient universities in the United Kingdom—Oxford, Cambridge, Edinburgh, Glasgow, St Andrews and Aberdeen.

00:27:21: Scotland with ten percent to the population has twice as many ancient universities as England does so.

00:27:26: Scotland is if you will in the eighteenth century over-executed.

00:27:34: What we see emerge, especially in urban Scotland is this kind of efflorescence of thinking and thought.

00:27:41: We get advances in economics.

00:27:45: Adam Smith's Wealth Of Nations was first published in the year seventeen seventy-sixth.

00:27:50: William Robertson The Great Historian Is the principal at Edinburgh University At This Time.

00:27:59: Hutchison and so on, we know the names.

00:28:01: There's a great flowering that goes in the eighteenth century Scotland.

00:28:07: That is really quite important In terms of European intellectual history The history of the British Empire But also in shaping America Because what you see Is not just the transmission Or movement Of peoples And goods around the Atlantic world but ideas.

00:28:28: James Wilson and John Witherspoon, for two who are in this Continental Congress.

00:28:33: Witherspoom becomes the president of Princeton... ...and shapes to develop into a university curriculum at the United States.

00:28:41: But we see ideas transmitted through books, pamphlets or newspapers as well.

00:28:48: There's often a lot of Scottish parochialism around.

00:28:51: the Scottish Enlightenment Influences the way we understand it today and there's a sort of boosterism that I don't find terribly helpful, but there is something going on in Scotland There's no doubt.

00:29:03: They're something going up in Scotland And at the the spread of these ideas Which spreads along with?

00:29:10: The migration of people and the trading goods Is incredibly important helping to shape What's Going On In The Colonies and how the colonists Understand Their Relationship with Britain as they come to question it.

00:29:27: Now, Barter Baylor admitted almost sixty years ago It is ideological origins.

00:29:32: the American Revolution unpacked The ideas that the colonists were expressing and the books They weren't only reading the Scots.

00:29:39: I want To be clear about That but there's certainly a Scottish inflection And we see that in the example i gave you at the top where We See Francis Hutchison Influencing Jefferson thinking when it comes to the pursuit of happiness In that sense Of Happiness.

00:29:55: And, and indeed Franklin I believe met Hume in Scotland.

00:29:59: In this seventeen seventies...in the early seventeenth seventies.

00:30:03: Yeah!

00:30:03: Franklin received honorary degrees from Edinburgh & St Andrews and he met Huma.

00:30:09: Benjamin Rush signatory to The Declaration of Independence was educated at the University of Edinburgh.

00:30:15: He's a student at the university of Edinburgh Medical School.

00:30:18: So beyond the Scots who go out we also have Americans coming in.

00:30:23: Ten percent of the students at The University of Edinburgh in seventeen seventy six were American.

00:30:29: It's fascinating, that's really interesting.

00:30:31: Yeah so they're being educated and taking those ideas back with them?

00:30:35: yeah And let's indeed cross the Atlantic once again and look at the Scots In the colonies Let's say around seventeen seventy to seventeen seventy five.

00:30:47: What is the general attitude Of scots The colonies, are they at this point referring to themselves as being Americans?

00:30:57: Are they referring to themselfs?

00:30:59: is being Georgians or Virginians.

00:31:01: Are they refering to themselves As Scottish-Americans?

00:31:05: To what extent does their identity Scottish now and say between seventeen seventy in the outbreak of war in seventeen seventy five?

00:31:15: Oh This is a difficult one I

00:31:17: think.

00:31:18: sorry

00:31:19: no that's okay.

00:31:22: I think they see themselves as scots, in part because their seen is Scots.

00:31:27: We get that phrase from Jefferson's original Rough Draft.

00:31:30: They're being heard and seen a Scotts which reinforces that identity.

00:31:35: And Scots have mixed reputations of these colonies.

00:31:39: In some cases there are welcome especially where the numbers predominate.

00:31:45: Their scene has good God fearing folk chiseling merchants who are taking our money and taking out tobacco ripping us off.

00:31:55: There's a stream, there is thread of scotophobia in the colonies that pretty potent particular areas.

00:32:03: we see this expressed cartoons and print sometimes.

00:32:07: so it depends on circumstances but I still think most to them seen as Scots now whether those were second or third generation sees themselves Scots or Americans is more debatable, it's less clear.

00:32:25: To some extent that.

00:32:25: what this whole revolution about there?

00:32:27: figuring out who they are right?

00:32:29: Yeah yeah absolutely.

00:32:31: you've mentioned the tobacco trade a couple of times and I think at this point in Europe the Tobacco Trade was dominated by merchant traders in Scotland And their offices in Virginia for example mercantile system going on.

00:32:51: And that was actually problematic and potentially also a reason for the American Revolution.

00:32:57: so can you talk a little bit about the tobacco industry in The Tobacco Trade, Anne Scotland?

00:33:02: Sure if anybody has the opportunity to visit Glasgow, Glasgow have some amazing eighteenth-century buildings by the trading tobacco.

00:33:17: And Glasgow is, of course a port in the west of Scotland and Glasgow merchants became along with merchants in Liverpool it should be said really important in the transatlantic trade especially to Maryland Virginia North Carolina the colonies that are producing their most tobacco.

00:33:38: Glasgow merchants become what are called they send out.

00:33:41: What are called?

00:33:42: Factors who buy tobacco there.

00:33:44: basically, They buy lots of tobacco Tobacco planters.

00:33:50: like Many people work in agriculture Like much many farmers and I'm using farmer when i'm using that kind Of term loosely Are often in debt because That's the nature The agricultural economy.

00:34:03: You know you the crops only come In a couple times A year once or twice a Year but UD Food and clothes all year round.

00:34:11: And so they often have to borrow against their crops, and that means the tobacco factors in the merchants many of whom are Scots In That Region Are Extending Credit To Planters And They're Selling Them Stuff.

00:34:30: They want nice things, they want books.

00:34:32: They want China and they want clothes from Britain and Europe.

00:34:36: And the factors are selling them goods as well extending them credit.

00:34:41: This creates a relationship That's very lucrative for both sides.

00:34:46: You can look at these grand houses in Glasgow, you could also visit George Washington's Mount Vernon.

00:34:51: that is not a small house and it's full of interesting stuff And let us not forget all the labor provided by enslaved people.

00:35:03: But on both sides of the Atlantic are profiting off this.

00:35:06: yet there is belief from part of the planters.

00:35:11: they're being cheated often by their business partners.

00:35:16: By the chiseling Scots, and so this really reinforces that negative stereotype.

00:35:25: on The other hand one of George Washington's closest friend And his doctor James Craig was a Scottish educated Doctor educated at these universities That are doing such good job producing knowledge in the eighteenth century.

00:35:37: So it's not a straightforward, oh we hate all the Scots but there is an antipathy towards The Scots especially in the Chesapeake region as result of this relationship.

00:35:47: As I said This Relationship has worked pretty well for both sides For a good long time.

00:35:55: But There Is A Belief That That Relationship Is Imbalanced And Skewed Towards The Scouts.

00:36:03: And when war breaks out, in fact there is then very much a split of people siding with Patriots and then Scots siding With King George.

00:36:16: I believe town is burned because it was the center Of Scottish tobacco trade In the Chesapeake area correct?

00:36:24: Yeah that's right!

00:36:25: Norfolk Virginia is burnt early in The War.

00:36:30: There'a belief.

00:36:32: I mean, there are some people who support the revolution because they think oh we can clear our debts this way.

00:36:36: The post war...

00:36:38: Yeah!

00:36:39: The post-war status of the pre-war deaths is going to be a major issue in British American relations for a couple decades.

00:36:46: Not all the Scots support the British but many do.

00:36:51: Many dude become loyalists and it's real head scratcher.

00:36:56: actually As too its conundrum explain why like descendants of the Jacobites or in some cases, the Jacobite themselves.

00:37:05: Like Flora MacDonald and North Carolina become loyalists you think?

00:37:08: You people rebelled against The British state!

00:37:10: You should be with the

00:37:12: Patriots!".

00:37:13: And we don't really have an adequate answer for that.

00:37:16: there are varieties of answers who had been put forward but to some extent what we see especially in the South is That civil war you referenced With British settlers against each other Native peoples dragged in and slave people's dragged.

00:37:34: And it is a very, very complicated war for political reasons.

00:37:44: but we see a lot of Scots become loyalists more or less bedeviled historians ever since.

00:37:56: I mean, the prevailing view which i find pretty compelling is it really does depend on local circumstances.

00:38:01: so you know in the back country of North and South Carolina we see Scots who think well...you know what?I don't like those people in a low-country that have never given us political rights anyway.

00:38:13: So yeah..i've got to better shot under the British Empire than I would being governed by them, and i think there's a lot of matter to that.

00:38:20: To some extent it is just a matter once the cycle of violence starts becomes very difficult to stop.

00:38:29: That reminds me about the episodes on Wales.

00:38:32: in Ireland It's very difficult to make any generalizations about which side someone would take, and indeed in a maritime episode we remember that some sailors will change sides as many as twelve times.

00:38:45: That

00:38:45: is right.

00:38:46: Royal Navy, continental navy, royal navy, continental naval... And then at the end they're like okay here I am but i want to take this story back to Scotland.

00:38:55: now The war breaks out.

00:38:58: Lexington and Concord, seventeen seventy five And then the Declaration of Independence is released Of course on the fourth of July of seventeen seventy six.

00:39:08: How are the Scots reacting to this in that central belt?

00:39:13: Towns and cities and also in the Highlands.

00:39:18: I Think they've already decided what they think once the War starts as although there Are some Scottish radicals Just as there are radicals in England who side with the Patriots throughout the conflict and think that they're right Think, they've got some.

00:39:32: you know their causes just and this is where we're back to it.

00:39:36: being another British Civil War most people

00:39:41: Are

00:39:42: either indifferent or?

00:39:44: They respond in a patriotic fashion.

00:39:46: Their countries at war and they side with their country And whether they see their country of Scotland or Britain is different discussion, but I think there's.

00:39:59: they're worried about the disruption in trade.

00:40:02: They are worried about economic impact on them and that there is an economic impact.

00:40:07: or in Scotland of war independence because trade has disrupted.

00:40:11: But most i think our indifferent Or inclined towards Britain with some outspoken political radicals with the Patriots in America.

00:40:24: The war comes to Scotland a little ways, John Paul Jones raids the Scottish coast this whole way for Earth during the War and he himself is a Scott.

00:40:34: not far from where I'm sitting today In Edinburgh Castle which was major military base at that time one of the earliest American flags in terms of graffiti is carved into one of the doors.

00:40:47: And that was done by a sailor who was imprisoned at Edinburgh Castle during the conflict, so... The war comes to Scotland in small ways but I think most people are either indifferent to the Declaration of Independence or they're inclined to support Britain.

00:41:06: Having said that, its afterlife is really important in Scotland because there's a long...

00:41:11: In fact and thats what I want to discuss now.

00:41:13: The wider political implications of the Declaration of Independence on Scotland.

00:41:19: Because over the years obviously Scottish independence, the Scotland nationalist movement has only been growing for the last two hundred fifty years.

00:41:28: And do we see then the American Revolution?

00:41:35: Sort of you said there are some radicals in seventeen seventy six, but did this help radicalize people more?

00:41:41: I know in Ireland the fact that The American colonies were successful and their war of independence.

00:41:48: That actually succeeded in being independent was kind of this really important concept that People had been thinking of rebelling But they never thought they could succeed.

00:41:59: Now here we have a case of Colonies succeeding And breaking free.

00:42:06: Yeah, I mean that's an excellent question Andrew.

00:42:08: We see in the immediate aftermath of The American Revolution and the French revolution it should be said That Scottish radicals really look to America And France as models.

00:42:24: There is a surge in political migration In the seventeen nineties from Scotland To United States.

00:42:33: we see a number Of radicals who are In part, worried about the stricter sedition laws in Britain and the aftermath of The Frank's Revolution.

00:42:44: And these are basically political exiles.

00:42:46: so we see some Scottish radicals going to the United States after independence.

00:42:51: So whereas before at the beginning, as we discussed earlier most of the migrants I think were economic migrants in the seventeen nineties and first decade to the nineteenth century We see political radicals going into the United States And seeing The United States As a possible model for the future.

00:43:10: In terms Of the bigger question that you asked about Scottish Independence the afterlife of the Declaration of Independence in Scotland is very Very interesting.

00:43:19: so I have attended many, many an Independence Day event here in Scotland.

00:43:26: American Independence Day

00:43:28: Event

00:43:28: where somebody from the Scottish National Party has stood up and made a connection between The Declaration of our Broth Of Thirteen-Twenty And The American Declaration of Independence.

00:43:40: And they've said, it's an article of faith among certain nationalists both here in Scotland and the United States that there is a direct connection between The Declaration Of Our Growth.

00:43:53: Sorry Frank I don't think our audience is aware potentially of

00:43:59: The Declaration.

00:44:07: aristocrats essentially, in thirteen twenty to the pope asserting their identity.

00:44:15: I mean i'm not a Scottish medieval historian but it's an expression of Scottishness and a collective Scottish identity to an external power in thirteen-twenty.

00:44:24: And the argument that is made on both sides of the Atlantic by small numbers of people should be said there was direct correlation between declaration and the U.S Declaration of Independence, I want to be clear here because i've said this repeatedly in Scotland there's no connection.

00:44:44: There is no connection.

00:44:45: This isn't an imagined connection.

00:44:48: It's a very interesting story however Because what it tells us about national identity in the aftermath and how The Declaration of Independence has been used, and appropriated after the fact.

00:45:00: So it's interesting to me...the declaration of our growth wasn't even known as the Declaration Of Our Growth until the nineteen twenties.

00:45:06: It was

00:45:06: previously called a paper letter But at that number times I've heard people say yeah but its an inspiration for American Declaration of independence.

00:45:14: There is huge Scottish influence on America As we have spent this past hour discussing direct Scottish influence on the American Declaration of Independence, but it is not the declaration of our growth.

00:45:25: I think that what we see though is some advocates for independence here in Scotland are seeking to draw this connection for their own political reasons...here!

00:45:41: So i once spoke with a government minister from The Scottish National Party and said you really have.

00:45:50: And she said, yeah but there's a debate about it isn't that?

00:45:53: I say there is only the debate because you keep saying it.

00:45:58: There are no evidence that Jefferson was inspired by the Declaration of our growth when he drafted the Declaration on Independence or then came up in Congress and they were debating independence after life.

00:46:10: its really interesting however such an impact, this belief is really interesting.

00:46:18: To the extent that April six which is the day of the Declaration of our growth is dated April sixth thirteen twenty, April six is now tartan-day in The United States and so it's the Day That Celebrated...and this was enacted by Congress at the end of the nineties.

00:46:37: It's an official holiday in the United States, acknowledging Scottish-American connections.

00:46:42: And The Day Chosen to Mark This April six is the anniversary of the declaration of our growth so the Declaration of Our Growth Is Incredibly Important In Terms Of Scottish Identity and Scottish American Identity.

00:46:55: Its Connection To The American Declaration Independence Is Non-existent

00:47:00: But I don't think it matters.

00:47:01: maybe i'll just add with asking what I ask all my guests As a historian looking at the two hundred fifty year anniversary of The Declaration Of Independence, what are the big tech takeaways?

00:47:14: For me one of the big take-aways this anniversaries is it doesn't matter.

00:47:19: What the historical reality as people read into the document and the founding whatever narrative that they want.

00:47:26: And for the Scottish Nationalists if its seeing a connection with the declaration of our growth so be.

00:47:34: But this is a question for you, not me.

00:47:38: You are absolutely right Andrew!

00:47:41: Every generation makes the declaration into what they need it to be and I think when your in an international context its particularly interesting to see that.

00:47:51: Okay actually i forgot to ask you...I do have very final questions which is whatever happened with those scotch mercenaries?

00:48:00: we're going to deluge the colonies?

00:48:04: Well, to some extent they succeeded because the American War of Independence was very bloody but They also lost at least those who fought for The British.

00:48:11: But I think it's important to remember Andrew that there were Scots.

00:48:15: Who fought in the British Army?

00:48:16: There were scouts who fought on the Continental army.

00:48:19: there were scots who fought In the Patriot and loyalist militias And then we're just Scottish civilians who wanted us stay out of the whole thing.

00:48:28: This was a civil war.

00:48:30: It was a British Civil War that resulted in the independence of the United States, but it involved the Scots as well.

00:48:36: Scots played a prominent role at basically all levels and on all sides.

00:48:43: Professor Frank Culliano thank you very

00:48:45: much!

00:48:46: My pleasure.

00:49:26: If you enjoyed this podcast and would like to support German-American friendship why don't visit us AmericanCentrum.de where you can become a member and donate?

00:49:37: The America Centrum is an nonpartisan, not-for-profit institution dedicated to strengthening

00:49:43: the transatlantic

00:49:44: relationship.

00:49:46: Views and opinions expressed in this episode are those of guests or hosts Not the America centrum.

00:49:53: We take our Nonpartisan mission seriously.

00:49:56: Therefore we do NOT take any institutional positions on politics.

00:50:02: Learn more about us, become a member and donate at americancentrum.de.

00:50:07: Thanks for listening.